Anyone want Aero?

[Jeremy]

The need to build another boat has been growing over the past 24 hours, since spotting that little electric boat (or more specifically, since spotting the other one that Ratcatcher John highlighted).  I already have too many boats, and SWMBO has declared that the electric Winsome cannot go, so that means Aero has to.  I've decided I'm not a real rower, anyway, so its probably the right choice.

There is, of course, the thorny issue of the blasted RCD.  I've decided that Aero hasn't yet been "put into service" in RCD-speak, and that she is really a canoe, with a slightly truncated stern (hence exempt).  She will be sold minus oars, as they are on the list of non-permitted propulsion methods under the blasted RCD.

To be honest I have no desire to sell her for any sort of profit (I think she cost around £250 or so in materials and paint), so intend to split any offer I get 50/50 with the MS Society (my late father was an MS sufferer).  Equipment includes the (could be a bit lighter) movable alloy seat, movable rigger (with clamps and a pair of gated rowlocks fitted to Delrin blocks) and movable stretcher (with clamps).

I also don't want to create an ebay-style bidding thing, so will accept the best bid I get by midnight on 14th October 2011, sent to my email address (via this forum's emailing widget).  I can deliver her within around 50 miles or so of Salisbury.

[Alan]

Did you sell Aero? I did wonder why you weren't using her for the 2012 CCC. Do you or does anyone know of a place where I can read about the RCD especially as it applies to home built boats?
Alan

[Timmo]

Hi Alan.

You can try:

http://www.britishmarine.co.uk/upload_pub/RCD_Boatbuilders_Guide_Apr06.pdf

as a source for info on the RCD. In particular, close to the start, the list of exclusions is interesting/useful.

Tim.

On 31 Mar 2012, at 20:36, Alan [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Do you or does anyone know of a place where I can read about the RCD especially as it applies to home built boats?
Alan

[Jeremy]

No, I still have Aero, although Brian has said he would like a go in her some time.  The blasted RCD says that you aren't allowed to sell any home built boat that's not RCD certified for five years after completion, although there are some odd exceptions (canoes, for example, as long as they cannot be propelled by oars, only paddles).

I was planning on using Aero this year, or at least a variation on Aero, but she's right at the LOA limit at the moment and adding a propulsion unit at the stern (which is what I'd like to do) would have made her ineligible by being too long by about 150 mm (as LOA for the CCC seems to be defined as the distance between the stem perpendicular and a perpendicular from the tip of the propulsion system).

The RCD wants reviewing with regard to home built small boats, in my view, as it's being widely ignored by some and the five year rule is simply about trade protection, not safety (and the RCD was intended to be safety legislation).  I have no problem with the rest of the RCD, it's largely common sense, it's just the small boat bit that's completely bonkers.

[Alan]

Tim,
thanks for that information, I'm off out now but I've had a quick look and it seems just what I need,
Alan

[Alan]

Thanks Jeremy, I replied to Tim's answer before I realised that you had written too. It's unfortunate for you about the length overall.
I've already spent two complete evenings browsing the HBBR forum, I'll spend another one studying the RCD.,
Alan

[Chris Waite]

Jeremy, correct me if I'm wrong

But my understanding is that not only can you not 'sell' a boat you cannot 'lend', 'hire', or even 'give' it to anyone else for five years.

Otherwise Ms. 'Octavia' would be up for grabs.  Not that she's lacking, only that in my declining years, I find she goes so fast my creaky old neck cannot keep up with the necessary peering over my shoulder to see what I am running into next and the fore-view mirror I have set up, requires sufficient concentration that the glories of the day slip past unnoticed; as do the kingfishers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWHV4b5E1us

Thank you Paulie

I would probably have killed myself at the time of the first Thames Raid if it wasn't for some thoughtful gent in the cockpit of a narrow boat roaring "BANK!" at the crucial moment; otherwise I would surely be buried eternally in a small corner of meadow next the upper Thames

No; it's the Ped-yuloh for me

The ancient and marinated  CW

[Jeremy]

You're right, Chris.  

I'm still at a complete loss to understand how a 5 year old home built boat is considered to be "safe", and can therefore be sold, lent given away or whatever, yet a small home built boat (other than a canoe that cannot be propelled by anything other than paddles) less than 5 years old is too unsafe to be sold without RCD certification.

It's a barking mad bit of legislation, influenced by the professional boat building lobby who wanted to protect their own businesses by misusing safety legislation.

[BrianP]

Still hoping to have a go in Aero.

For some reason I distinctly remember rowing sculls, ie racing sculls, are not covered by the RCD rules and that training boats for learning these skills are also free of the RCD.

So, would something like Paul Gartside's Flashboat, his version of the Cornish Skiff racing boat, be free from RCD?





Brian

[Jeremy]

You're right, Brian, racing boats are excluded from the RCD, as are boats classed as rowing training boats for racing.  They have to be marked as being for rowing training use only, but I'm not sure what level of checking might ever take place (if any).

It might well be a bit of a loophole to just put a "For rowing training use only" sticker on a rowing boat and then claim it's exempt from the RCD!  I think it would be fairly easy to class Aero as a training boat, too.

In fact, thinking about it, pretty much any rowing boat could be classed as a training boat, I'd guess, as rowers seem to race pretty much anything.  You might even argue that a big, fat, tubby rowing boat is a training boat, perhaps for ocean-crossing rowers.............

AFAIK the RCD isn't policed here in the UK in any effective way, at least with regard to small boats, with the possible exception of future inland waterway licensing (I believe there may well be checks for CE marked manufacturers plates before too long).   The whole thing's a complete nonsense, anyway, as by far the most numerous category of small boat (and arguably the least safe) is exempt from the regulations.

[Anders]

Jeremy
You can sell or give away your boat in Holland, Sweden and Denmark and most probably in Norway and many other places.

[Jeremy]

That's interesting, Anders, and goes to show how each country decides to implement EU regulation differently.  Here in the UK we seem to just love creating rigid and inflexible law out of EU Directives, whereas other countries in the EU take a very different approach.

It reminds me of my first trip to Italy some years ago.  I drove in the morning rush-hour from my hotel to the Naval Academy where I was attending a conference, stopping at every red traffic light on the route, which caused all around to sound their horns in irritation.  I didn't want to break any laws, so stayed stopped every time a light was red.  When I reached the Academy I asked the officer who was hosting the conference if red lights meant the same in Italy as everywhere else.  "Ah", he said, "in Italy traffic lights they are just for guidance...".

[alopenboat]

On 3 Apr 2012 at 14:31, Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> That's interesting, Anders, and goes to show how each country decides
> to implement EUregulation differently.  Here in the UK we seem to just
> love creating rigid and inflexible law out of EU Directives, whereas
> other countries in the EU take a very different approach.

I know of several people who have sold fairly new home built boats
without anyone appearing to take any notice.

Anyway, as Aero was built specifically for a race surely it is beyond
doubt that it is a racing boat and therefore exempt.

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

[Port-Na-Storm]

Jeremy wrote

  "Ah", he said, "in Italy traffic lights they are just for guidance...".

I've heard a slightly different version of the same tale where an Italian Policeman stood watching everyone going through red lights. No one was considered to be breaking the law until someone running a light hit another car. Then the law had been broken and someone was going to be prosecuted.

I think the same applies in this country. No one is much bothered and I don't think the authorities could care much, they have much more important things to do chasing real crooks.  But if someone does get hurt, and there is real negligence then the law is there to protect the innocent.

What's worse? Selling a boat which is a replica of an 18th century death trap and RCD exempt,  or selling a boat which is totally safe and compliant which doesn't actually have a certificate?

I think sleeping dogs are best left to their slumbers. If I was selling slightly dodgy goods on a street corner, I wouldn't be carrying a banner telling everyone it was against the law.

[Anders]

"That's interesting, Anders, and goes to show how each country decides to implement EU regulation differently.  Here in the UK we seem to just love creating rigid and inflexible law out of EU Directives, whereas other countries in the EU take a very different approach. "

You guys in England think you have rigid and inflexible laws. Move to Spain and build yourself a boat following the rules. Then you´ll find out that compared to that, the UK legslation is VERY light . In Scandinavia we dont register boats and therefor we dont have things like RCD. I think Holland is the same.

[Bill Jones]

Having just built a Linnet I am following this with (academic only) interest. I'm sure the comment below is right - no one will bother too much, but if a boat is sold and then is involved in an accident or claim, then the technical infringement could become serious for the seller.

 

Incidentally, after a year of Linnet-building, on the first launching at Rutland Sailing Club I was chased off the lake - Anglian Water don't permit rowing boats on their reservoirs! Attempts to establish why not only elicited the 'rules is rules' response.

 

I shall now try the local canal.

 

Bill Jones

Linnet 'Wandle'

 

 

 

...No one was considered to be breaking the law until someone running a light hit another car. Then the law had been broken and someone was going to be prosecuted.

I think the same applies in this country. No one is much bothered and I don't think the authorities could care much, they have much more important things to do chasing real crooks.  But if someone does get hurt, and there is real negligence then the law is there to protect the innocent.

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[Jeremy]

Port-Na-Storm wrote

What's worse? Selling a boat which is a replica of an 18th century death trap and RCD exempt,  or selling a boat which is totally safe and compliant which doesn't actually have a certificate?

I think sleeping dogs are best left to their slumbers. If I was selling slightly dodgy goods on a street corner, I wouldn't be carrying a banner telling everyone it was against the law.

I sort of agree, but feel uncomfortable about being put in a position where the legality of something may be questionable at a later date, particularly when it comes to the remote possibility of there being an accident and a question of liability.  A have a friend whose life was devastated by being charged with manslaughter, following an accident where all he did was help a good friend do a job.  The friend (and an another person) were killed in an accident, the cause of which wasn't positively determined but was thought to involve the work they did together.

Thankfully such events are rare, but the consequences are so great as to make one think about the possibility, however remote it may be.

I believe the easy way out is to either destroy any surplus home built boat that's less than 5 years old (as Paul has just done with Illusion), or to formally declare it as being for racing purposes only, with this statement being on a plaque on the boat and on any sale documents.   The only risk with the latter course of action would be if it was later determined that the "racing use only" statement was a deliberate ploy to get around the law, and perhaps constituted an unfair contract term, which in the case of Aero would be hard, as she was designed and built specifically for a race, with enough evidence around in the public domain to prove this beyond doubt.

I still believe that we shouldn't be put in this daft position, as the idea that a home built canoe, gondola or pedalo is safe enough to be sold or passed on to anyone at any time, yet a similar size dinghy, rowing boat or whatever isn't is simply ludicrous.

[Timmo]

Careful!

If the law makers hear you their response almost certainly won't be to relax the law, it will be to bring all canoes, etc. under its remit. And at the moment at least some boat building is categorically exempted. 

But you're right, the RCD, among many others, is a law the world can live without. I'm attracted by the view that if you can't judge whether a boat is a safe one to use for the purposes for which you intend then you probably shouldn't be buying a boat. Life was simpler in Arthur Ransome's day... "If duffers, better drowned. If not duffers, won't drown" (hope I quoted that correctly.)

Incidentally, what precisely constitutes a canoe/gondala/pedalo? I suspect the definition is very broad and Aero could easily be a canoe that (like many canadian canoes) can be rowed. Equally, Chris Partridge's Sprite is a nice little boat, sold commercially by builders, but I don't see it complying with the RCD. Is it a 'racing' craft? Not sure there's a racing class for it.

Maybe the problem just goes back to ambulance chasing lawyers fuelling the compensation culture.

Tim.

On 4 Apr 2012, at 11:10, Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

I still believe that we shouldn't be put in this daft position, as the idea that a home built canoe, gondola or pedalo is safe enough to be sold or passed on to anyone at any time, yet a similar size dinghy, rowing boat or whatever isn't is simply ludicrous.

[BrianP]

Pedalo? So a Hobie Mirage Drive craft would free of the RCD since it would be classed as a pedalo?

Perhaps the RCD rules are affecting builders choices. Low cost builds using cheap ply seem to be the vogue just now. Knowing selling the boat on could be difficult with the RCD rules, does lead to "cheap and cheerful" and "adventurous" it seems.

Brian

[Jeremy]

Timmo wrote

Incidentally, what precisely constitutes a canoe/gondala/pedalo? I suspect the definition is very broad and Aero could easily be a canoe that (like many canadian canoes) can be rowed. Equally, Chris Partridge's Sprite is a nice little boat, sold commercially by builders, but I don't see it complying with the RCD. Is it a 'racing' craft? Not sure there's a racing class for it.

I spent an hour or so yesterday trying to answer this question about definitions.  There is nothing in the RCD or the supporting documents that defines a canoe, gondola or pedalo, but there is specific wording that says that if the boat is so fitted that it can be propelled with oars (and they define oars as needing two paddles, in effect) then it isn't a canoe.  Taking the outrigger off Aero would mean there's no way to row her, so she would then qualify as a canoe, in RCD terms.  Similarly they sort of define a pedalo by mentioning foot powered propulsion (so the "string and sticks" yuloh device the eminent doctor invented would qualify!), but they make no mention of how a gondola is defined at all.

The whole thing's a bit of a pigs ear, with poor definitions, pointless distinctions between types of craft (from a safety perspective) and enough potentially unclear wording to keep lawyers going for years.  The obvious advantage of this is that I really can't see anyone bringing a prosecution for breach of the RCD, unless it was following a major accident, as it's so unclear as to what is and isn't included.

The net effect is to put people off a bit though, I believe.  I reminded of Chris P(N) and his lovely boats, often built just for the pleasure of building them it seemed, but destined to lie under tarpaulins in his garden until they were 5 year old and could be legally disposed of.