Camping in a Punt

[Paul H (admin)]

Chris,

The long gentle curve is just right - a jolly good start.

 At the risk of corrupting the boxy format I would add a generous 4in radius at the four corners. Locks are full of hazards to trap sharp edges, remember how Tony lost the battle with the lock gates back in 2009?

A generous corner curve will help her past the holes, gaps, chains and other obstacles on lock walls rather than stopping dead when a square corner gets stuck, spinning her round embarrassingly across the lock followed by HBBR craft and motor boats panicking into full reverse. Happy days.

Mr Partridge has already tested the 9mm floor and seats in MilliBee's cockpit as we tacked towards the "funnel of doom" on the Broads Raid...they are rock solid.
Three supports no more than 1ft apart should be ok.

Paul

[alopenboat]

On 7 Mar 2014 at 6:46, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> I'd put in a vote for floor boards. It's very difficult mopping a boat
> completely dry after rain. Floor boards just lift you that inch so
> water in the bilges stays out of your sleeping bag. Understand the
> weight penalty but you spend more time sleeping in the boat than
> carrying it. Also means that if you do step heavily and crack anything
> it won't be the hull!

Halfords have for sale, at the moment, floor mats, intended for a
garage, workshop etc. They are foam tiles, 10mm thick, 600mm square
which lock together to form a large play mat. 6 tiles for £10.
<http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?stor
eId=10001&langId=-1&productId=978469&catalogId=10151>

I have just bought some to line the floor inside Little Jim. At the
moment I use a bit of sleeping mat to ease the kneeling situation,
but it suffers much from damage by shoes etc. These look much
tougher.

Some of these would lift you a little above the damp and, for the
real rufty tufty types, may even substitute for an air bed.

(If you get any, having removed the packaging, leave them outside for
a week to let the manufacturing fumes dissipate)

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>

[Chris Waite]

Now just a moment Possums

It's not me who chose a punt; they are boxy - that's the whole point and introducing a few subtle curves while maximizing the use of ply sizes was my sole intention.  As for trying to 'radius' an 18 inch cardboard model....    you do it; Mr Michalak doesn't offer radiuses

Floorboard-snoreboard; Radius-tedius; detail-retail

This was just a little something I knocked up to give an idea of possibilities.

Next thing; it seems we could go into a whole new topic as to how punts are propelled.  If you watch the punts at 'Oxbridge', I think you will find that the operator stands on the stern to avoid pooping the party, pretty much like a gondolier.  It seems that you can plant the pole, put it to your shoulder and walk the length of the vessel, but go to Norfolk and most people would tell you that is quanting, they use a thing that looks more like a "young flagstaff" with a 'button' on the head:



Look at the guy in the green shirt toward the after end of the port side deck.  With typical 'Got the T-shirtishness', I've done both - the punt takes more skill, as you have to control the direction as well - almost impossible while quanting, where there is normally a helmsman too.  Usually being lighter, the punt is less tiring.

The pole and mud is good for a laugh

For the audience that is

CW  

[BrianP]

[Timmo]

No problem with punt shape, just appreciate how the subtle curve makes such a pleasant difference.

Re punting and the different styles. I've a feeling the quanting method has a wider and longer pedigree.

My first source is a book Chris Partridge put me onto a book called "Our River" by a Victorian artist George Dunlop Leslie (free download at https://archive.org/details/ourriverthames00leslgoog), who penned the immortal phrase...

"In the summer of 1871 two events happened to me of some importance, namely, I got married, and I bought a new punt. Of my wife I do not here propose to say anything, but the punt was such a beauty when new, and has been such a faithful and trustworthy friend ever since that I cannot forbear giving a slight description of her …"

In that book he describes 'walking the punt' as the proper way and speaks disparagingly of the new habit of perching on the back. I quote: "there is another style of punting much used at Oxford for light punts, which is done by standing in the stern, or on the till, and pricking the boat along..."

Second source is Jerome K. Jerome's "3 Men in a Boat" in which he describes punters walking the punt (and occasionally taking a step too far.)

Punting's like skinning a cat it seems.

Tim.

On 7 Mar 2014, at 19:45, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Now just a moment Possums

It's not me who chose a punt; they are boxy - that's the whole point and introducing a few subtle curves while maximizing the use of ply sizes was my sole intention.  As for trying to 'radius' an 18 inch cardboard model....    you do it; Mr Michalak doesn't offer radiuses

Floorboard-snoreboard; Radius-tedius; detail-retail

This was just a little something I knocked up to give an idea of possibilities.

Next thing; it seems we could go into a whole new topic as to how punts are propelled.  If you watch the punts at 'Oxbridge', I think you will find that the operator stands on the stern to avoid pooping the party, pretty much like a gondolier.  It seems that you can plant the pole, put it to your shoulder and walk the length of the vessel, but go to Norfolk and most people would tell you that is quanting, they use a thing that looks more like a "young flagstaff" with a 'button' on the head:

[Chris Partridge]

Chris, that shape is perfect and exactly the thing.
I do like the idea of floorboards though. They are traditional in punts, where they are known as gratings, and have, as Tim points out, the advantage of holding you above the inevitable small amounts of water that form however rigorous your mopping.
They might also allow the saloon section to be made rather lighter, a considerable advantage when cartopping as the floorboards could be put in the back of the car.
Traditionally, punts are made with 'treads', so called because the hull looks like a ladder before the bottom is added. In Oxford, they are called 'rounds', an analogy with the rods of a chair back (don't ask me how they came up with that).
Anyway, three treads and four gratings would form a flat and dry space to recline.

What do you think?
And how about a meeting so I can admire the model (and we could drink beer...)?

[Paul H (admin)]

With the treads and gratings epoxied they would be extremely strong and spread weight evenly.

The floor could then be thinned to 6mm to save weight.

 

Or glue the whole lot together into a collection of I beams. Strong and lightweight.

Paul

Sent from Samsung Mobile

[Randonneur]

Well since this has degenerated to design by committee, I think you need to think outside the box (or punt)!

This looks ideal for this summer's sunny raid...

[Timmo]

Oh yes! Just add a bit of platform to stand on and it's sorted.

On 11 Mar 2014, at 11:37, Randonneur [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well since this has degenerated to design by committee, I think you need to think outside the box (or punt)!

This looks ideal for this summer's sunny raid...

[Chris Partridge]

And somewhere close to hand to rest a glass of amber fluid...

[Chris Waite]

Oh dear; I must be switched into hyperwaffle

All I was really trying to do was get the principles of the hull acceptable in the sight of the great ChristoPart; apparently with a modicum of success.  Christo, I intend to take 'Rosie Mae' to Dell Quay this Friday 14th, (but that is another story), so could slip the model in the van and meet you there, say lunchy-time?

I have a very old Tinker Tramp that has been lurking around dry as a bone among the rafters of the garage for some twenty years or so and I bet if I even lowered it to the floor, within five minutes it would have a cup and a half full of water sloshing around in the bottom.  That's what flat-botty-boats are all about, aren't they?

So, quite happy with floorboards, mats for cows, people and puntmeisters, rungs, ribs, gratings, mattresses, whatever relieves the moisture and grips the soul, er - sole.  Radiused corners?  Cracking!  It even occurred to me to have entirely-rounded, or seriously-narrowed ends.  However, it is useful to have the width of deck to find oneself accidentally on the back foot of, otherwise the 'swims' don't just refer to the ends of the punt.

Think, there could be a detachable end on the pole, so that it came off and was left dangling on a bungee if stuck in the mud, rather like snow-ski bindings; only more sort of surfboardy.  Or a pop-up night tent with lace curtains and a glass bottom for folk-to-fish voyeurism.

And vice-versa, of course

Anyway, while I appreciate the urge to save weight, it should be remembered that the lighter you build it, the more torsionary and also skittish it will become and that includes being less obliging when heading into anything of a breeze; yes, even on a canal or Hamble for instance.  Rather like trying to stand on the back of a very large bumblebee.

Water-ballast, anyone?

CW

   

[Timmo]

Fair cop Chris.

Was definitely distracted from the main purpose. Also conscious that most suggestions are coming from people who will neither be building nor using the camping punt that started this thread so suggestions may lack the practicality that real investment in the project would stimulate. Given the timescale for building will not be long elegant simplicity is a significant virtue.

Design as modelled looks seriously the business. Had I not already done my own thing along these lines I'd be interested, and could yet be one day. There are some rivers on the borders of the Vienne and Charente regions thst would be enhanced by the sight of a punt patrolling their waters. Seen lots of canoes, but as yet no punts.

Tim.




On 11 Mar 2014, at 16:07, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Oh dear; I must be switched into hyperwaffle
>

[Chris Partridge]

The Punt Design Subcommittee met today:

A full report can be read at rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com.

[Chris Waite]

I've just sent ChristoPart a ply cutting plan

One 4' x 8' and two 5' x 10' sheets:



Immediately after the photo above and still grinning like a baby rock-ape, I handed over the model.  Now I can't measure it, a minor hiccup has been perpetrated on the 4' x 8' sheet; there is a slight overlap on the swim decks and the saloon bulkheads.  However, I promise it will all come out in the wash.

Just needs a nudging of the numbers

Or diddling with the design

Tally Ho, Chaps!

CW

[ChrisC]

Blimey, I haven't posted here for some years but this punt thread is very interesting.  I have done a fair bit of skiffing and rather less punting on the Thames but I have watched a lot of punt races over the years.

My observations (for what they are worth) are that if you want to make progress in a punt as opposed to the kind of languid drifting enjoyed in Oxford and Cambridge two things tend to happen:

1: You end up standing pretty much centred fore and aft.

2: Your toes tend to be against the side of the punt with you facing outward - this heels the punt and deeply immerses the chine, giving the punt better directional stability.  For this reason it is best if the punt is straight-sided between the swims, with little or no flare.  This directional stability is important because 'ruddering' to steer (with the pole swishing about off the stern) slows you down significantly - it causes drag and all the time you are messing about with it the punt is not being propelled forward.

Proficient punters (one of which I am not) steer by slightly altering the direction of push each time they plant the pole.

An average racing punt is generally 2' wide and quite heavy and I would guess at about 24' LOA.  They are very stable indeed. For your purposes- laden but with a shorter length, I suppose 3' beam sounds about right.  I would avoid anything wider than that because where the river is too deep to effectively punt the pole is very effective as a double ended paddle and you don't want excessive beam to get in the way of that.

Best of luck with the design!

[Jeremy]

That's an interesting observation, ChrisC, as the same applies to the Duck Punt.  When propelled with no heel it has all the lateral stability of a testicle on roller skates.  Induce a bit of heel, to immerse a chine, and it runs as if on rails.

The sailing Duck Punt racers arrange to balance the heel angle by lying diagonally, with their feet over one gunwale and head over the other, shifting back and forth (rather like sliding up and down in a bath), to maintain the optimum heel angle.

One wonders why punts don't have slim skegs running under the hull, or perhaps chine runners?  Perhaps a couple of slim runners under the hull might be enough to both give additional lateral stability and impart added stiffness to the bottom, so reducing the thickness of ply needed?  The additional wetted area might slow the punt down very slightly, but overall I'm inclined to think that this would be offset by reduced weight resulting from the thinner ply that could be used.

[Chris Partridge]

The design is maturing nicely. I have decided against a solid ply bottom in favour of a structure like this:

The runners will help get it up slipways and the treads will provide torsional strength. Floorboards between the treads will keep me nice'n'dry overnight, I hope.
The next question, me hearties, is the vexed problem of cost/quality. Should I go for the cheapest exterior ply I can get, plus a bunch of cheap wood-like extruded material from B&Q, hoping it will stay together for at least the maiden voyage, or splurge on quality item that will become a family heirloom? (hint: my perpetual financial crisis continues).
All suggestions and offers of offcuts gratefully received.

[Paul H (admin)]

Buildbase do good quality 3/5 ply at a fair price - far better quality than the nasty cheap ply of dubious origin.
http://www.buildbase.co.uk/content/bol_products.asp?cat=Timber_And_Sheet&subcat=Plywood

 Do a small test piece with 6mm and treads/runners,  I reckon it will be fine, but with 9mm super strong.

For the "gunnels" cheap spruce didn't work too well as the epoxy flaked as the grain swelled/shrunk on MilliBee as the years went by.

Maybe you could use Grahams top secret b&q decking oil recipe?

Paul

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Chris,
I would strongly council against buying the cheapest WBP available. CW and I have both been there and its not nice. Cheap stuff will de-laminate quicker than you can punt to Pangbourne, and compared to the price of epoxy it's a false economy. Presumably you are planning a good paint finish, possibly over epoxy in which case I'd go for birch ply. Lovely to work with and as bendy as  very pliable ply.

Go to your nearest decent builders/timber merchants and ask for redwood for the stringy bits.

Cheers. Grum

[Randonneur]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chris,
I would strongly council against buying the cheapest WBP available. CW and I have both been there and its not nice. Cheap stuff will de-laminate quicker than you can punt to Pangbourne,

I hope you're not suggesting that Pam will not make it down the Thames this year!

She's only done 100 miles under my command.

Pete

http://youtu.be/zAvByiN8ehs