Daggerboard

[Peter Nobes]

Good evening everyone

I've been told that when I'm sailing across the wind I should have my daggerboard half way up.  When I pull it up it drops back down again: the board is 12mm thick and the slot is 18mm.  Should I make a new 18mm board?  Use a wedge?  Not bother?

Thanks
Peter

[momist]

I sometimes have the same problem Peter, especially in very light winds, which is when raising the board a bit is likely to make a difference.  In heavier winds, it stays in place itself due to the leeway the dinghy is making.  Also, it is received wisdom to raise it enough so that none is showing below the boat, when going downwind, to reduce drag, and it then gets in the way of the boom when gybeing causing a potential capsize.  Taking it all the way out leaves a bigger hole in the bottom that causes more drag than having it down.

So, what to do?  I've seen some boats with a bungee cord rigged around the stern of the raised board, to add a bit of friction, but the best solution I've seen is a slit rubber seal over the bottom of the dagger board case which adds the required friction and also closes the hole left if you take the board out.  I've often thought about doing that, but never found the required round tuit.

As regards your burgee, I use a piece of orange plastic ribbon from lee the end of the yard, which seems to work well for me.  I wouldn't put it on the front end though, as it would simply lie to the side of the sail you can't see or stick to the side of the mainsail for more than half the time.  If you are serious about watching the wind, you would also need tell-tales at intervals on the mainsail, to indicate the flow.  These on a race boat would be colour-coded, although I have no idea why as I can tell port from starboard without them.

If you do turn into a spar nerd, I can send you the dimensions for a new hollow mast to replace my solid one with?

[Gizzle]

I stretch a loop of bungee over the top of the daggerboard and this provides just enough friction to keep it partly up when required, the bungee is permanently looped through a stainless eye at the front of the daggerboard case.

I think it is important to have some form of retainer on the dagerboard for when the boat capsizes to help keep the board in the case.

[Peter Nobes]

That bungee loop sounds good.  I'll give it a go and report back.

And yes, a wind indicator on the lee end of the yard is far more logical than what I was thinking of.  But while we're on the subject, has anyone got the design for our club burgee?  Someone has volunteered to sew one for me.

On 15 August 2012 09:08, Gizzle [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I stretch a loop of bungee over the top of the daggerboard and this provides just enough friction to keep it partly up when required, the bungee is permanently looped through a stainless eye at the front of the daggerboard case.

I think it is important to have some form of retainer on the dagerboard for when the boat capsizes to help keep the board in the case.

http://georgeisted.blogspot.com/

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--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[Whameller]

I'm currently nearing completion of a Moonfish 14 (a Bateau designed, Sunfish clone - think lateen rigged Laser).  

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-60Dhtmu5xHI/U1bQuxPAznI/AAAAAAAAAUM/xJiMIJrElfM/s1600/2014-04-22+20.14.08.resized.jpg

On a wooden Sunfish, the daggerboard is retained when down by two of these clips:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/misc/dbclips/index.htm 

as well as a bungee cord for use when it is partly or fully up.  

'Under 4 bucks each, so what's the problem ?' you may well ask.  Duckworks want nearly ten times the base price in P&P charges !!

So, any ideas on how to achieve the 'daggerboard secured when down' effect with something readily avilable here in the UK ?  At the moment, I'm thinking along the lines of sections of hosing screwed to each side to achieve the necessary friction but still allowing easy liftling and lowering.

Thanks.

Nick W

[Peter Nobes]

The bungee cord really does work.  It'll hold the board fully down, half-way down etc, and needs very litle tension to do it.

[alopenboat]

Lead?

On 17 Jul 2014 at 3:20, Whameller [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> I'm currently nearing completion of a /Moonfish 14/ (a Bateau
> designed, Sunfish clone - think lateen rigged Laser).  
>
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-60Dhtmu5xHI/U1bQuxPAznI/AAAAAAAAAUM/xJiMIJrE
> lfM/s1600/2014-04-22+20.14.08.resized.jpg
>
> On a wooden Sunfish, the daggerboard is retained when down by two of
> these clips:
>
> http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/misc/dbclips/index.htm 
>
> as well as a bungee cord for use when it is partly or fully up.  
>
> 'Under 4 bucks each, so what's the problem ?' you may well ask.
> Duckworks want nearly ten times the base price in P&P charges !!
>
> So, any ideas on how to achieve the 'daggerboard secured when down'
> effect with something readily avilable here in the UK ?  At the
> moment, I'm thinking along the lines of sections of hosing screwed to
> each side to achieve the necessary friction but still allowing easy
> liftling and lowering.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Nick W
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
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> -----
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> 07/17/14

--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>

[Jeremy]

Reminds me of my first ever boat (rather than canoe) which was a Sunfish clone of some type.  It looked just like that photo except that it had curved decks either side of the cockpit well to sit out on, with a toe strap across the floor.   I used to beach launch it, usually at Mounts Bay, and the thing was quite a lot of fun on a reach.  It sailed surprisingly well with that low aspect lateen rig.  The only real downside was it was more prone to the end of the boom hitting the water and making the thing capsize than a Laser is.  In a blow you could find yourself whizzing along on a reach and you had to remember NOT to ease off the sheet too quickly if going on to a broad reach, or else the boom would dig in and you'd end up getting wet.  I quickly learned that the get out of jail card when planing along at a fair lick with a wish to turn a bit more down wind was to luff up into wind, slow down off the plane and then ease away again in the intended direction.  Not a boat where gybing was a pleasant activity either, as it was very difficult to maintain any sort of control as that long boom and gaff swung over, as there's a limit as to how much sheet one hand can pull in through a two part tackle.  I had a lot of fun in that boat though, and sold it two two young lads who were going to learn to sail in her, and I am sure they had as much fun as I did.

Getting back on topic, the dagger board on mine didn't have those neat little stainless friction springs, so I used rubber door wedges tied to bits of string (those of a certain age will probably remember them, they use to be very common).  I'd just reach forward and wedge them down the side of the case to hold the board in the right place.

[Port-Na-Storm]

I once sailed a laser in Greece, which thankfully has warmer water than we are used to here.
I found, by accident it was very easy to capsize when going round a mark if you happened to be standing on the mainsheet. Doh!
With the wind on the beam and the sheet trapped, the inevitable happened.
The wind on the beam also contributed to the total inversion, as it made the mast dig in as we drifted sideways.
So there I was bobbing around the upturned hull watching the dagger board slowly sliding into its slot and down towards Davy Jones furniture warehouse.
This was of course the lever by which I intended to right the bloody thing.
I managed to grab the last remaining inch of the board by the tips of my fingers and gradually persuade it to ease upwards until I could get enough purchase to pull myself onto the hull.
The rest was text book stuff 😊
Having righted the boat and gathered my wits, the safety rib turned up. Thanks Guys.

So, I don't think lead is the way forward, as a heavy board would have shot downwards like a brick.
Of course those in the know will know that the laser and many other similar boats have a length of bungee, through the board and attached to something solid like a cleat or the mast which not only stops it sliding down when sailing, it stops it sliding up when capsized and even if it does fall out it is still securely attached to the boat which saves you from having to swim around looking for it.

Now that I know what that bungee is for I try to remember to attach it.

I'm with Peter. (although I still prefer centreboards).

[Whameller]

I'm already sold on the bungee - both as a post-capsize safety line and when securing the daggerboard half or fully up.  Sunfish sailing technique seems to use this extensively.

But this is really mostly giving stability in the fore-and-aft dimension.  The DB slot is a fair bit wider than the board itself and so some sort of lateral stabilisation effector is needed.  This is what a Sunfish wooden DB (of the pattern that I'm making) looks like, to give you some idea:

http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=577 

Another though I've had is sticking carpet or cheap doormat pads to the part of the DB that remains in the trunk when it is fully down.

I'm looking forward to having a go in this when launched (!), but it is mainly intended for my tennagers.

Nick W

[Michael Rogers]

This thread seems a bit long in the tooth, but it enables me to share an important experience related to daggerboards.

I was using a loop of bungee round the after edge of my daggerboard to provide sufficient friction to hold the board in any position I wanted, from right down close-hauled progressively to up as far as the boom allows for a dead run. It worked well in my boat.

A few weeks ago, sailing solo, I made a silly mistake in fairly rough conditions about 200 yards from the shoreline off the Dorset coast, near Durdle Door, and capsized. My boat turned turtle almost at once, and as I reached to grab the daggerboard, to exert leverage to right her, I watched it slide smoothly down into the boat under its own weight and disappear inside the hull.

I stayed with the boat and spent the next 70 minutes (yes, seven zero minutes, well over an hour) drifting slowly eastwards in cold water under the gaze of about 40 interested spectators on shore, before it occurred to one of them to dial 999, by which time I was hypothermic and fed up! Once alerted, the rescue services were superb, and I was none the worse after a brief precautionary trip to hospital. And my boat was recovered undamaged. So all was well which ended well but, frankly, it might not have done, with no thanks to Joe Public. Had the dagger board stayed down (meaning up, if you see what I mean), I am confident I could have righted the boat. Without that lever and on my own, I was infuriatingly helpless.

There are lots of lessons I have learned from this debacle (one about VHF radios which don't float!), but the main one is to be absolutely surethat the daggerboard cannot fall back into the hull when capsized. To that end, the upper half of the after edge of my board now has deep narrow notches in it, and the bungee loop has been beefed up and tightened. Having a free loop knotted into the bungee near that after edge makes it simple to adjust while sailing. Now, if there is a next time (please not! - that was the only time I have ever capsized in my stable little boat), I will be able to cope (!?)

[Michael Rogers]

Sorry, the comment about long-in-tooth was when halfway through my spiel and, checking what had been previously written, I got a 2012 date. But I have read and digested the up-to-date contributions!

[Chris Waite]

I'm sure there were other extenuating circumstances and this is easier to write than it can be to put into practice, but if you find yourself next to your upside down dinghy in the water and the centre/dagger board has disappeared into the bowels of the hull....

Find a line - anything attached will do, such as a jib sheet, halyard end, or whatever - I've even used the main sheet, though it means the sail will start drawing as soon as it is above the water....

Try and run it round any object part way down the hull, such as a chain plate, rowlock, jammer, even the thwart if you can reach, then throw it over the hull.  Work your way round to the loose end on the other side and start pulling.  It's not as easy as handling a nice, solid board, but at least you have something to encourage the boat to come back up.  This can be supplemented by trying to climb onto the hull as you pull - those amazing minimal foot holds like the underside of the gunwale, any bilge runner and the slot of the case itself all suddenly make mountaineering quite attractive - at least a mountain doesn't roll about underfoot.

Acrophobia* rules!

(*Heights)

Christo the W


More thoughts:

....climbing onto the hull over an end is also a possibility

Michael, did you try waving to these fascinated onlookers?

There's a famous seaside place called Blackpool
That's noted for fresh air and fun
And Mr and Mrs Ramsbottom
Went there with young Albert their son

A grand little lad were young Albert
All dressed in his best, quite a swell
With a stick with a horse's head handle
The finest that Woolworth's could sell

They didn't think much to the Ocean
The waves they was fiddlin' and small
There were no wrecks and nobody drownded
'Fact nothing to laugh at, at all

[Michael Rogers]

Thanks for all that, Chris, and hallo again.

Yes, I tried the things you suggest, without success. It was quite rough (waves 1+ metres). I'm not quite as spry as I once was, but I'm not going to reveal my age in case someone thinks, 'well, what was he doing out there on his own, then?' Let's not get into all that. The other point to make is that, had I exerted myself harder for longer initially, I might have found myself out of energy/heat sooner than I did.

Yes, Chris, of course I waved long and hard in the approved 'international distress signal' manner. The audience may not have seen that. I find it difficult to judge distance, especially from sea level (literally), and the shore seemed a long way off. However, I could clearly see the onlookers watching in rows on the cliff top (i.e. not walking), and I don't see why they couldn't see that there was someone in the water faffing around an upturned boat. Perhaps they thought my straight arm waves were me being sociable.... Apologies for the bold type - I still can't quite believe what happened (or, rather, didn't happen) from that point of view.

Funny you should mention the Ramsbottoms. The same thought had occurred to me as yet another faceful of cold sea water sloshed along the upturned bottom of my boat and landed in my face. I'm sure they had given up on Blackpool, and were giving the south coast amusements a try. Glad to oblige.

Anyway, can I point out we're a bit off topic here. I wanted to make the point about dagger boards, that having a system which keeps the board down (= up) when the boat is upside down can make a crucial difference, and recounted my escapade to indicate that I speak (write) from recent personal experience. I am fairly confident that I could have righted the boat had the board been there.

[Port-Na-Storm]

Thanks for sharing this with us Michael.
Some of us fair weather sailors could learn a lot.
I've never capsized my boat, intentionally or not, and I know I should just to check everything happens as expected. I've got a centreboard which works on friction but I've never actually checked that it will stay up/down when it should.
Graham.