Epoxy/paint

[Peter Nobes]

Good morning all.

Like Graham I have to decide which boat to take to Barton Turf - the new one won't be ready and the two old ones both need some TLC first.  I fitted a new runner on my canoe and it needs to be painted.  I can put International paint straight onto epoxy-coated wood,right?  Or do I need some kind of primer or undercoat?

Thanks
Peter

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Peter,
If no one else is going to chip in I'll have a go.
I would always advise using a primer/undercoat.
Otherwise the colour is likely to chip off easily and might look pretty transparent.  
Think about the primer as doing all the donkey work of adhering to the substrate/epoxy and setting up the surface for a decent top coat.

Give the epoxy a light sanding with 120 ish grit to give it a key then get a couple of good coats of primer on to that.
Sand this back, maybe even using a bit of wet and dry if you are really fussy,
repeat until you can't stand it any more.
Wipe it all down with white spirit then put the top coat on.
I use a roller and tip off with a dry brush as I go to lose the orange peel effect.

PS I use Weathershield on Katie Beardie. Cheap as fried potatoes.
Hemple/Blakes on Coot - not cheap.  

Have Fun.

[Timmo]

Hi Peter

Agree with Graham.

Particularly important to ensure no amine blush... sand and wash thoroughly (particularly if you used West.) Missed a bit once on my son's kayak. Paint never set! A year later we had to scrape the area clean and redo it.

Weathershield does do the job very well. Not particularly abrasion proof but really cheap to touch up. If you want abrasion resistance go for a two pot system, that you probably will be able to stick straight onto epoxy. Others know more than me about that!

Treat any advice I offer regarding finishing with caution. I have never yet cracked getting a quality finish!

Tim.

On 22 Mar 2015, at 17:32, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter,
If no one else is going to chip in I'll have a go.
I would always advise using a primer/undercoat.
Otherwise the colour is likely to chip off easily and might look pretty transparent.  
Think about the primer as doing all the donkey work of adhering to the substrate/epoxy and setting up the surface for a decent top coat.

Give the epoxy a light sanding with 120 ish grit to give it a key then get a couple of good coats of primer on to that.
Sand this back, maybe even using a bit of wet and dry if you are really fussy,
repeat until you can't stand it any more.
Wipe it all down with white spirit then put the top coat on.
I use a roller and tip off with a dry brush as I go to lose the orange peel effect.

PS I use Weathershield on Katie Beardie. Cheap as fried potatoes.
Hemple/Blakes on Coot - not cheap.  

Have Fun.

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[Peter Nobes]

Thank you both.  I've used epoxy from Fyne Boat Kits but I can't remember what it's called. I think it's less prone to blushing but I'll check.  Most of the hull is simply having another coat of paint, and as I originally used International paint I'll be using that again.   The bare wood is just the runners and there is so little wood I don't want to buy a pot of International primer.  I've got a tin of undercoat so presumably I can do the scrubbing and keying and then paint two coats of that.

On 22 March 2015 at 21:35, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter

Agree with Graham.

Particularly important to ensure no amine blush... sand and wash thoroughly (particularly if you used West.) Missed a bit once on my son's kayak. Paint never set! A year later we had to scrape the area clean and redo it.

Weathershield does do the job very well. Not particularly abrasion proof but really cheap to touch up. If you want abrasion resistance go for a two pot system, that you probably will be able to stick straight onto epoxy. Others know more than me about that!

Treat any advice I offer regarding finishing with caution. I have never yet cracked getting a quality finish!

Tim.

On 22 Mar 2015, at 17:32, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter,
If no one else is going to chip in I'll have a go.
I would always advise using a primer/undercoat.
Otherwise the colour is likely to chip off easily and might look pretty transparent.  
Think about the primer as doing all the donkey work of adhering to the substrate/epoxy and setting up the surface for a decent top coat.

Give the epoxy a light sanding with 120 ish grit to give it a key then get a couple of good coats of primer on to that.
Sand this back, maybe even using a bit of wet and dry if you are really fussy,
repeat until you can't stand it any more.
Wipe it all down with white spirit then put the top coat on.
I use a roller and tip off with a dry brush as I go to lose the orange peel effect.

PS I use Weathershield on Katie Beardie. Cheap as fried potatoes.
Hemple/Blakes on Coot - not cheap.  

Have Fun.

Port-Na-Storm

http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/

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--

[Alan]

I'll butt in with my own problem on this thread as it is related to the original post.

I started the finishing of my skin-on-teak boat with the intention of epoxying every part separately and then varnishing but quickly realised that I need to finish the boat before I die, so gave up the epoxy after coating the transom. The Le Tonkinois varnish dries quickly on bare wood but was still tacky over UK epoxy after 24 hours and is still a little tacky after 48 hours. Is this specifically due to the epoxy? I've never seen the mysterious amine blush. Also, could it just be that bare wood absorbs some of the varnish leaving less solvent at the surface to be evaporated?

[Timmo]

In my experience the mysterious (and irritating) amine blush is not visible. We were only aware we'd missed some bacause of the consequences.

Can't specifically comment on the drying properties of Le Tonkinois though. It may well be what you're experiencing is perfectly normal for that finish on top of epoxy. Now it's on I'd certainly give it a while longer before engaging in the hassle of cleaning it off and starting again.

Incidentally... does anyone have opinions about what varnish is best over epoxy? I ask because varnish on bare wood is there to seal and protect the wood from water and to some extent UV rays, varnish over epoxy is there to mainly to protect the epoxy from UV. The epoxy is protecting the wood from water. Each therefore has subtly different needs and is in itself a very different surface to apply the finish to. For example I used to like using Varnol on bare wood, but would not have used it over epoxy.

If this gets some debate and maybe even gets some scientific input (will be interesting if it does) moderators are welcome to treat this as a hijack and move it to it's own thread.

Tim

On 24 Mar 2015, at 11:46, Alan [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'll butt in with my own problem on this thread as it is related to the original post.

I started the finishing of my skin-on-teak boat with the intention of epoxying every part separately and then varnishing but quickly realised that I need to finon ish the boat before I die, so gave up the epoxy after coating the transom. The Le Tonkinois varnish dries quickly on bare wood but was still tacky over UK epoxy after 24 hours and is still a little tacky after 48 hours. Is this specifically due to the epoxy? I've never seen the mysterious amine blush. Also, could it just be that bare wood absorbs some of the varnish leaving less solvent at the surface to be evaporated?

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[Port-Na-Storm]

I used Le Tonk a long time ago on my Whilly Tern
Nice stuff. I probably put it over epoxy on the decks and don't recall any problems with it.
As Tim says, give it a few days longer, it may go off in the end.

The older I get the more convinced I am that varnish is a mugs game. The old boys down at the Ancient & Vulnerable have spent their entire retirement re-varnishing boats every year or two.

In future I will paint as much as possible and only use oil on those bits where I want to see the grain.

Le Tonk is lovely to use and doesn't need rubbing down before over coating, but I found I got far too precious about damaging the surface, and those who know me know I'm not kind to my possessions.

If you really want to varnish over epoxy I would reckon its best to use a two-pack polyurethane varnish which is about as bomb proof as you can get.

Now I'm off out to spread the last of my Varnol on the Coot's spars.

Graham.

[Alan]

I think the Old Salts are right. The varnish over epoxy is now only slightly tacky so I don't have to worry about removing it. I wish I had decided to oil finish though, as Graham suggests.