Foilsculler

[Chris Waite]

Trying to paint a better picture, TimmO....

I've seen builders who have a bench circular saw on an arm.  They walk up with their uncut length of timber, shove it against the guide, then start and pull the saw down with the other hand.  After the cut, they shove it back up in the air, (switch off) and walk away with their next rafter, or whatever.

If you had an arm hinged somewhere forward with the Mirage on the end of it, aimed at the case.

You might not even need latches to hold it down

Make any sense?

CW

[Timmo]

Funnily enough I've got a couple of saws just like that.

Since the kitchen is stored in a specially built box just forward of the drive case I'll have to think what get's kept and what changed to make it work. As well as the pivoting mechanism thought will have to go into the frame that holds the drive and how much wood needs removing from the keel to allow the frame to swing down low enough for the drive to operate (fins need to be able to flip up flat agains the hull.)

It will need some fastening down if pivoted at the front. The lifting pressure from the forward push on the pedals has been sufficient to snap two 12mm ply hold downs (till I reinforced the last one with an aluminium layer.) 

I'll also ponder pivoting the drive the other way, back toward the seat. Won't clear weed quite so automatically, but does move pivots, arms etc. away from the kitchen and could negate the need for any hold down... pedalling pressure should hold it in place. Could be lifted just by pulling back with both feet.

Will have fun with diagrams on next long ferry journey.

On 25 Nov 2016, at 15:47, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Trying to paint a better picture, TimmO....

I've seen builders who have a bench circular saw on an arm.  They walk up with their uncut length of timber, shove it against the guide, then start and pull the saw down with the other hand.  After the cut, they shove it back up in the air, (switch off) and walk away with their next rafter, or whatever.

If you had an arm hinged somewhere forward with the Mirage on the end of it, aimed at the case.

You might not even need latches to hold it down

Make any sense?

CW

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NAML

[Chris Partridge]

Which ferry do you take, Tim? If Portsmouth, we could convene a meeting of the Design Group in the Air Balloon or somewhere on your arrival, as long as you don't do anything silly like booking an early morning crossing...
Chris, I have circled even further back from the original discussion point, banging my shins on design that has been knocking about my office for a while. Monohull, weeds not a problem, lots of camping space:

[Timmo]

Yes Portsmouth. Unfortunately next two trips are at antisocial o'clock, 08.30 Sunday week and 23.30 on Boxing Day

But we do it a lot so some point there will be opportunities to create a design focus group.

I recognise that punt. Would be nice to have the option to pole it as well.

On 25 Nov 2016, at 17:00, Chris Partridge [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Which ferry do you take, Tim? If Portsmouth, we could convene a meeting of the Design Group in the Air Balloon or somewhere on your arrival, as long as you don't do anything silly like booking an early morning crossing...
Chris, I have circled even further back from the original discussion point, banging my shins on design that has been knocking about my office for a while. Monohull, weeds not a problem, lots of camping space:

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NAML

[Chris Waite]

I think TimmO

This may turn into an excuse for a longer hull

Picnic hampers in front of the case, (sleeping) headroom behind the case and now a lifting arm under your pedalling seat.

I hardly need to warn you to take care that, in use

It does not agonisingly impinge on your

Personal accoutrements

CW

(ChristoPart - I remain agog with anticipation)

[Timmo]

Actually, am working on very rough sketches regarding a triangular mount that drive hangs from and pivots to lift the drive as near vertically upwards as possible. Aim being a retrofit to Zelvah if I can ever make it work. 

Problem at the moment is that the drive is a close, though not tight, fit fore and aft in the case and the swing of the lift looks like it brings one end or other into contact with the case. The longer the lifting arm the smaller that swing, but the correspondingly greater intrusion into other spaces already in use.

But I'll sketch and ponder through the Christmas season. Maybe a moment of insight will strike.

Meanwhile accoutrement, personal and otherwise, will be carefully guarded!

Tim.

On 27 Nov 2016, at 11:26, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think TimmO

This may turn into an excuse for a longer hull

Picnic hampers in front of the case, (sleeping) headroom behind the case and now a lifting arm under your pedalling seat.

I hardly need to warn you to take care that, in use

It does not agonisingly impinge on your

Personal accoutrements

CW

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NAML

[Paul H (admin)]

A longer hull?  Sounds interesting.

Regarding the pedal drive - how does one get hold of a drive?

-Paul

[momist]

@Timmo.  Have a look at the solutions used for swinging a food mixer under the worktop in the kitchen.  You might get inspiration?
Ian

[Timmo]

Longer is always good, up to a point.

Regarding sourcing a drive it's pretty easy these days, just Google "Hobie UK".

These guys show up at Beale every year, very friendly and helped me out with spares:

http://hobiecatcentre.co.uk/kayaks/

Tim.

On 27 Nov 2016, at 13:44, Paul (admin) [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

A longer hull?  Sounds interesting.

Regarding the pedal drive - how does one get hold a drive?

-Paul

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NAML

[Paul H (admin)]

Timmo wrote

These guys show up at Beale every year, very friendly and helped me out with spares:

http://hobiecatcentre.co.uk/kayaks/

Yikes, a cool £667 for the ST Turbo (with go-faster stripes)
http://hobiekayak.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=64_68&product_id=551



All the dolphins will be jealous.

Presumably ST Turbo translates in over-50s speak to, harder to paddle?

-Paul

[BrianP]

There really does seem to be a need for an affordable pedal drive design. You guys are such a clever group boffins I reckon you can solve the issues.

The chap who makes the Dad's Boats https://dadsboats.com/ was thinking of a single drive unit at one time.

Perhaps that could be revived?

Brian

[Timmo]

Yes, it's a lot of money. Was a tough call when I bought and they were a lot cheaper then. Can only point out that you don't have to pay extra for batteries, charging systems, petrol, oil etc. So the overall cost of ownership is possibly lower than most traditional alternatives. 

I've worked mine hard for over 5 years now and have just spent about £40 on spares to overhaul and service it for the first time. Not bad reliability! Incidentally the parts I replaced are different on the new drives. There are now needle bearings in them so they won't wear in the same way and therefore even that servicing will not be necessary.

Dad's Boats did propose a drive system, but my memory was that the cost was turning out similar and also needed more 'installation' with prop shafts etc. But I may be recollecting that wrong.

There is the Sea Cycle (http://www.sea-cycle.com/accessories/sea-cycle-drive-units) but they're $865 plus shipping, so not cheaper. Another alternative is the H2Pro-Ped (http://h2proped.com/ordering-information.htm) that's $695, again plus shipping. You can spend over £200 just on a kayak paddle without trying too hard.

So the Mirage drive price is pretty mid range compared to those alternatives. It's also proven.

But I don't get any commission for selling them so am not trying to persuade anyone to buy one!

If any one does buy one I recommend the Turbo fins. Specially if using the drive with a boat that's larger than the average Hobie Kayak. Not hard to push, but they are a little more 'highly geared' than the normal fins.

Tim.

On 28 Nov 2016, at 19:09, Paul (admin) [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Timmo wrote

These guys show up at Beale every year, very friendly and helped me out with spares:

http://hobiecatcentre.co.uk/kayaks/

Yikes, a cool £667 for the ST Turbo (with go-faster stripes)
http://hobiekayak.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=64_68&product_id=551



All the dolphins will be jealous.

Presumably ST Turbo translates in over-50s speak to, harder to paddle?

-Paul

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NAML

[Chris Waite]

Forty pounds for spares

That's in the same league as the total cost of a certain Pedyuloh.  It's done some four Thames raids now and so far I've probably used a fingerful of grease and I haven't yet had to clear it of weed.

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Yuloh-td2229216.html

At this point I would have liked to add a video of TimmO and I pedalling in company, taken by his family.  He with the Mirage drive as originally mounted in a canoe and I with the pedal yuloh strapped to the stern of my sixteen foot skiff Octavia; both moving along very reasonably and pedalling at about the same leisurely intensity.

However, Google and YouTube between them have achieved the usual incyberated hyper-tosh, rendering it beyond my ken

Heath Robinson rules

CW

[Timmo]

The pedal yuloh is absolutely the equal of the Mirage Drive and the cheaper option by far. Has even more advantage in that you can actually steer the boat usiing it, freeing both hands absolutely for waving at the admiring crowds. It is more in keeping with the spirit of 'home building' too.

Had CW created the first prototype of the pedal-yuloh before I'd splashed the cash for a Mirage Drive I might well have gone that route instead.

The comment about £40 for spares being 'not bad' was in comparison with replacenment seals, oil changes, seals, brushes and even whole motors,netc. that other bought propulsion systems demand.

Pedal-yuloh rocks!

Tim.

On 29 Nov 2016, at 11:54, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Forty pounds for spares

That's in the same league as the total cost of a certain Pedyuloh.  It's done some four Thames raids now and so far I've probably used a fingerful of grease and I haven't yet had to clear it of weed.

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Yuloh-td2229216.html

At this point I would have liked to add a video of TimmO and I pedalling in company, taken by his family.  He with the Mirage drive as originally mounted in a canoe and I with the pedal yuloh strapped to the stern of my sixteen foot skiff Octavia; both moving along very reasonably and pedalling at about the same leisurely intensity.

However, Google and YouTube between them have achieved the usual incyberated hyper-tosh, rendering it beyond my ken

Heath Robinson rules

CW

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NAML

[Jeremy]

As some here know, I've made a fair few prop drives, and although all mine have been electric, it would be pretty easy to make a pedal powered one, as the design power is around the same (mine all use props and a prop rpm that are very close to that used in a pedal powered boat).

All the parts are very cheap, BUT, there is a lot of labour involved, so if made commercially they would be very expensive.

The Winsome was a smashing pedal driven boat, with a prop that didn't collect weed and a hull design that was ideally suited to river cruising under pedal power.  The drive could be removed in a couple of minutes to leave a near-flat floor, too, so it could have been used for camping on the water.  All the parts in the Winsome were pretty robust and not massively expensive, but the amount of work needed to manufacture them led to a fairly high price, and very few were sold, I believe because the price was just a bit too high.

That's really the problem with any of these ideas.  They can seem simple, but unless they are very easy to build without machine tools etc then they end up being expensive.

On and off I've been working on a retractable drive leg, that has a two bladed prop with fixed, swept blades (for weed-shedding) and that will retract through a narrow slot, rather like a centreboard case.  It pivots on two different length arms, so comes up more vertically before laying over.  The trick was to make sure the prop was always vertical before the thing could be lifted, achieved in my case by a magnet and position sensor.  Selecting "retract" slows the motor to a very, very slow speed, then stops the prop at the right place, before switching on the retract mechanism.  I hate to think what this would cost to get manufactured, though!

[Chris Waite]

I dread asking this Jeremy

But what is wrong with marking the shaft to show and obtain vertical and lifting the apparatus by hand?

I spent a while a couple of decades ago, racing Sigma 38's and like any other similar crew, somebody had to get down, head at bilge level and manually rotate the prop shaft until a mark showed the twin blades were vertical, then shout for the gear box to be put in gear.  I'm also embarrassed to admit that it was a folding prop, but the enthusiasts still felt it made a difference.

Chris

[Chris Waite]

Continuing to cogitate, TimmO....

(Nocturnal nous)

To retain the current, neat box/case for the Mirage drive, how about mounting it so that it could slide on a vertical post set on the forward side of the box itself?

Up-down, in-out; give the weeds a clout

Sort of thing

CW

[Timmo]

CW... we're on similar tracks. I'm currently playing with a box in a box, inner box holding the drive sliding up and down in the outer box. 

Main issue will be the extent I'll have to dismantle and reconstruct what's there, not easy because it's all rather integral to the whole hull.

Likewise Momist's mixer lift idea. A useful source of ideas, but need something that delivers a more vertical lift. Any significant fore or aft movement before the beast has risen at least 20 cm won't work.

Alternatively I simply speed up the way I clamp and release using the existing system. Less work and possibly worth experimenting with before more drastic action.

Got lots of pictures of all sorts of ideas. Need to stand and look at the real thing for a while and that won't happen till late January because of 'other stuff'. 

New insights and lateral thoughts always welcome.

Tim.

On 30 Nov 2016, at 10:44, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Continuing to cogitate, TimmO....

(Nocturnal nous)

To retain the current, neat box/case for the Mirage drive, how about mounting it so that it could slide on a vertical post set on the forward side of the box itself?

Up-down, in-out; give the weeds a clout

Sort of thing

CW

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NAML

[Jeremy]

Chris Waite wrote

I dread asking this Jeremy

But what is wrong with marking the shaft to show and obtain vertical and lifting the apparatus by hand?

I spent a while a couple of decades ago, racing Sigma 38's and like any other similar crew, somebody had to get down, head at bilge level and manually rotate the prop shaft until a mark showed the twin blades were vertical, then shout for the gear box to be put in gear.  I'm also embarrassed to admit that it was a folding prop, but the enthusiasts still felt it made a difference.

Chris

Just the desire to have it all hidden from view, in a compartment behind the rear seat, pure aesthetics, really, nothing more!  To access the prop drive means moving rear seat forwards, then opening the rectangular watertight bulkhead hatch, then leaning in and pulling the thing up.  

The retraction system is a bit of threaded stainless rod, running in a bit of acetal bar and driven by a cased geared motor, from an old cordless drill (one it wasn't worth getting new batteries for).   The mechanism is strong enough to take being bashed in any position, and there's a bit of stainless plate that forms a prop protection skeg.  The prototype takes around 6 seconds to motor from full up to full down, which I think is acceptable.

[alopenboat]

On 30 Nov 2016 at 4:40, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:


> Alternatively I simply speed up the way I clamp and release using the
> existing system. Less work and possibly worth experimenting with
> before more drastic action.
>

When I looked at the Hobie canoes at Beale, a couple of years ago,
the drive had catches which allowed you to just drop the assembly in,
where it locked automatically, and then you flipped a couple of
leavers and lifted it out.

I understand that Hobie offer a disposal service for redundant hulls
and later when I visited the Poole office there were a couple of
hulls which had been sawed up (interesting to examine). Presumably
any hardware from such a hull could be bought for a low price, if you
strike the right relationship with the staff.

--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor only
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>