Illusion Hull For Sale

[Anders]

"As Spain is in the EU, doesn't that mean that you can just follow the RCD rules?  Can you pretend that the boat was built outside Spain, in another EU country where the RCD applies properly?  It sounds like your national regulations are far worse than even those the EU impose and designed to line the pockets of Naval Architects!
"


All countrys in the EU has their own small boat laws. Remember that the RCD is a directive and NOT a law. If I pretend it was build outside Spain, I would have to go through the same shit... same price. Same naval architects... There´s no way around...
If you live outside Spain, you can take your boat with you and use it for 3 month. (or maybe 6month) But, I´ve lived here for 10 years now, so there´s no way around for me.

[Port-Na-Storm]

I'm wondering whether it is the design of a boat which is RCD compliant or the actual boat?

I'm fairly certain that commercial builders of plastic boats do not have to prove that every individual boat is compliant, I expect that once a design is tested and approved then they are covered. They just have to ensure that every boat is built to the same production specification.

Some designers sell plans, and through intermediaries kits and completed boats. Francois Vivier comes to mind and I'm sure there are others.
The literature on Francois' web site implies that the designs are compliant.
For his son's Icari Boatyard to sell a complete boat within the EC it must surely be compliant.
So if an individual builds to the same design and specification it follows that the completed boat must be compliant so does the five year rule still apply?

A further question for BrianP is/was your Solway Dory Sailing canoe RCD certified?

thanks Graham

 

[Jeremy]

It is both the design (in terms of stability, flotation etc) that is certified and the construction (in terms of materials, quality, integrity of build etc).  The design element for small boats is just a paper exercise in self-certification, tests aren't normally required, even of a prototype, for the sort of small boats we're mainly interested in.

The construction element is the one that makes a kit built or home built to plans boat difficult to get certified, as it requires a competent person (in EU speak) to verify that the boat was actually built to the plans and that the construction methods, quality and materials are OK.  For example, the plans may call for watertight flotation chambers.  If the boat as-built has leaking flotation chambers then it would be non-compliant.  Similarly, if the boat is powered then the fuel stowage, fuel lines etc have to be shown to be compliant, something that can't be done from plans alone.

This is why part-built or kit boats are still subject to the five year rule, although, as I mentioned before, quite how waiting five years before selling a boat magically turns it from a potentially unsafe boat into a safe one is a bit beyond me.

One other snippet.  At the moment it is not possible to get a used boat certified under the RCD, even if that used boat was formerly CE marked under the RCD in another EU state.  The bottom line (at least in the UK) is that you cannot legally buy a secondhand boat that requires RCD certification from outside the UK and then use it here.  There are no plans to change this particular anomaly, presumably because, like the five year rule, it restricts the sale of boats to the UK market..............

Jeremy

[Timmo]

I suspect the five year rule isn't so much about a home built boat becoming compliant as it is about the possibility that a boat that was compliant when new will not be compliant by the time it's five years old. The law makers therefore decided that anyone buying a boat five years or more old can no longer rely on the RCD certification and will be expected to make their own judgement of the safety of the craft.

RCD is still an example of another law society doesn't actually need. 

Why do we use the word 'common' to describe 'sense' when common sense appears so rare? 

Could we have a new law about stupidity? As in "you were stupid not to notice the gap in the paving stones and stupid to put your foot in it and therefore you can't blame someone else for your stupidity and the consequent sprained ankle"?

How far off topic are we here?

Tim.

From: "Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 06:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tim O'Connor <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

This is why part-built or kit boats are still subject to the five year rule, although, as I mentioned before, quite how waiting five years before selling a boat magically turns it from a potentially unsafe boat into a safe one is a bit beyond me.

[Jeremy]

Timmo wrote

I suspect the five year rule isn't so much about a home built boat becoming
compliant as it is about the possibility that a boat that was compliant when
new will not be compliant by the time it's five years old. The law makers
therefore decided that anyone buying a boat five years or more old can no
longer rely on the RCD certification and will be expected to make their own
judgement of the safety of the craft.

Possibly, but the main RCD safety factors for small boats (floatation, stability etc) aren't going to change in five years, I would have thought.

Timmo wrote

RCD is still an example of another law society doesn't actually need.

I wholeheartedly agree, at least for small boats.  I can understand the need for a means of ensuring that larger, mass produced, boats are designed and built to safe standards, in much the same way as I'd expect a car to be designed and built.  What I can't understand is the perceived need to protect us from ourselves when building, or buying/selling/exchanging small boats for recreational purposes.  The person who always comes to mind when I think of this is Chris Perkins, who builds some beautiful boats, just the joy of building them, then can't even legally give them away until they are five years old.

Jeremy

[Anders]

Timmo wrote

RCD is still an example of another law society doesn't actually need.

Facts are that our socalled modern societies are going down. Its not getting better, its getting worse. You can see this on all levels.
*Politics is just babble. Democracy is dead or dying. To be a politician is about as low as you can get.
* Economy. We work harder, are more stressed and have less money. Well, most of us. Some few ones, the friends of the politicians are getting richer. They have fooled us. We are the fools. But our economy is dead or dying. Maybe something else will come. (chinese comunist free market economy for every one?????)
* Polution. There are few places where I live where I actually would like to sail.... and less fall into the water.
* I agree society doesnt need RCD, but I wish it was law here in Spain.

By the way. Good luck with selling Illusion.

[gmatkin]

Quite so. Compared with all the optimism of our youth in the '50s and '60s it's all getting worse and worse. Trubble is, if you watch Andrew Marr's series about the history of modern politics, it quickly becomes clear that things weren't always so good as they seem in retrospect. What's more, I'm sure all the 'Elf 'n' Safty' that people so despise has saved lots of us from having accidents by obliging employers to take precautions, train staff etc etc. I remember working on oil refineries in the days before all that came properly into effect, and every day saw things that would make most sane people's hair stand on end - and this was in the days just after Flixborough.

I'm quite sure people are more careful now, even if it does come with the usual bloody sillinesses - just as happens with the RCD etc etc...

G

---

From: Anders [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]>
To: gmatkin <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, 8 August 2011, 18:23
Subject: Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

Timmo wrote:

RCD is still an example of another law society doesn't actually need.

Facts are that our socalled modern societies are going down. Its not getting better, its getting worse. You can see this on all levels.
*Politics is just babble. Democracy is dead or dying. To be a politician is about as low as you can get.
* Economy. We work harder, are more stressed and have less money. Well, most of us. Some few ones, the friends of the politicians are getting richer. They have fooled us. We are the fools. But our economy is dead or dying. Maybe something else will come. (chinese comunist free market economy for every one?????)
* Polution. There are few places where I live where I actually would like to sail.... and less fall into the water.
* I agree society doesnt need RCD, but I wish it was law here in Spain.

---

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[Jeremy]

Getting back to the topic of Paul selling "Illusion".  Having re-read the RCD, and the applicable UK regulations that implement it, I'm pretty sure that it falls within the definition of "part-built" and that, in RCD-speak, "Illusion" hasn't yet been "put into service".  This means that responsibility for compliance, or otherwise, rests with the purchaser, so as long as the purchaser doesn't sell her on for five years all will be well.

BTW, having checked the rules, failure to comply with the RCD can incur a hefty fine or even imprisonment, as well as rendering any boat insurance null and void (even third party boat insurance would be void, as boat cover doesn't have the same mandated safety net that car third party insurance has).  Talk about regulation that's wholly inappropriate for the true risk............

Jeremy

[Frogsider]

Surely what Paul is selling is not in any way a boat - it's quite obviously a "novelty garden ornament/planter" and therefore not covered by any part of the RCD - including the prohibition on sale within 5 years.  

Paul would advise the purchaser in writing against its use as a vessel for navigation and pleasure purposes - but could obviously sell the rudder, oars, rowlocks, mast and sail, etc in a separate contract, since the sale of home made boat parts is not prohibited.

I believe Anders is engaged in making an experimental novelty 16ft electric bass guitar.  It could obviously not be a boat because the two 110 x 42mm rectangular holes in the bottom, designed of course for the installation of microphones or electric pickups, would let in the water and the instrument would sink.  If the new owner were then to fit, contrary to the advice of Anders, 2 Elvstrom/Andersen Super Medium Self Bailers in these holes, in order to use the guitar as a rowing boat, it would certainly not be the fault of Anders, and the new owner would have to be considered to have "built" the boat.

(photo left: Is this a boat? Josh Pyke's "guitar" made by guitar makers Maton in Australia)

I wish to make it clear that I am not building a boat.  I am building a novelty bathtub in epoxy plywood.  Other ideas I have for future inventions are an attractive stitch and glue garden shelter, a clinker sentry box for the driveway of my large house, and a cold moulded bookshelf.

     

[Timmo]

Nice thoughts; are you in the legal profession?

From: "Frogsider [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

I wish to make it clear that I am not building a boat.  I am building a novelty bathtub in epoxy plywood.  Other ideas I have for future inventions are an attractive stitch and glue garden shelter, a clinker sentry box for the driveway of my large house, and a cold moulded bookshelf.      

[Paul H (admin)]

Frogsider,

As part of the Illusion deal I'll throw in some tulips, roses also seeds for herbs, carrots, potatoes and parsnips. She will make a nice floating planter ideal for towing behind a twin engined motor boat for easy access to fresh vegetables.

Here is the business plan (canoes are exempt from the RCD)



plus a modest vessel for towing:



-Paul

[Jeremy]

adminHBBR wrote

canoes are exempt from the RCD

Not entirely.  They still have to have RCD certification if they are propelled by sail, oars, a motor or any other means, including being towed.  The exemption only applies to canoes that are paddled or propelled by pedals.

It's this sort of barking mad logic that really annoys me about the RCD, as it doesn't make any sense whatsoever from a safety perspective.  Paddled canoes won an exemption because of lobbying by canoe enthusiasts, who argued that a canoe would be unlikely to be able to meet some of the proposed small boat RCD requirements (stability, primarily, I suspect).  We all know that oars provide significant additional stability to a boat, so where is the safety logic to support the view that a canoe with oars needs certification whereas one with paddles doesn't?

The vast majority of small home built boat builders seem to have been ignoring the RCD for the past 12 years or so; a glance at any list of used boats for sale will quickly demonstrate this.  Given that this regulation is unworkable in practice and has no reasonable means of enforcement, yet that it also has the power to render small boat insurance null and void (and hence render some inland waterway access licences null and void too) isn't it about time we started trying to get this illogical and nonsensical restriction lifted?

Jeremy

[Paul H (admin)]

This is the last call for Illusion - I'll offer her on the blog and maybe the Selway Fisher forum also (with permission)

She has to go - firewood if necessary!

-Paul