RCD and CE homologation questions

[Anders]

Hi all

This is a bit complicated.
Fyneboats say that their kits have papers with CE homologation. What does that mean in the UK? Does it mean that their boats can be said to follow the RCD directive? Does it mean that you can build one of their kits and sell it before its 5 years old in the UK?

The reason I ask is that some of us are trying to find ways to construct and use home made boats here in Spain. So knowing what this  CE homologation papers means in countrys would help

[Timmo]

Hi Anders.

The word Homolugation (Greek in origin) is linked to Homogulated, which can be taken to mean 'Certified'. Goods can be said to be Homogulated by a public agency to ensure compliance with certain standards.

"CE Marking is European Product Safety Regulations. Products and installations that are put into use in the European market must comply to the CE marking and CE certification regulations. Only if products comply to the European Directives can they gain the CE approval and be supplied with a CE certificate."

So, it seems Fyne boats are saying their kits 'have papers' that are certified to EU standards. It's not entirely clear what standards (do they mean the RCD?) and, if the papers are certified does that necessarily mean the boats are once built?

They're nice people at Fyne. So I rang and asked. The individual I spoke to didn't know about the CE Homolugation but was clear that their kits have RCD certification and, if assembled according to the design, the boat will therefore comply with the RCD.

Building from plans was slightly less clear since there was more scope for the home builder to depart from the design, but if the boat is built as designed it will be compliant with the RCD.

Tim.

From: "Anders [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 00:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tim O'Connor <[hidden email]>
Subject: RCD and CE homologation questions

Hi all

This is a bit complicated.
Fyneboats say that their kits have papers with CE homologation. What does that mean in the UK? Does it mean that their boats can be said to follow the RCD directive? Does it mean that you can build one of their kits and sell it before its 5 years old in the UK?

The reason I ask is that some of us are trying to find ways to construct and use home made boats here in Spain. So knowing what this  CE homologation papers means in countrys would help

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[Timmo]

Oh, and the man at Fyne Boats also said they sell quite a lot of kits to Spain and he knew of at least one individual in Spain who recently built from a kit and subsequently sold the boat (well within 5 years.) 

Tim.

[Jeremy]

For small boats that fall within RCD category D, then demonstration of compliance with the RCD requirements is largely a paper exercise by the manufacturer.  The manufacturer has to provide two documents, a technical manual that demonstrates clearly how each relevant and applicable aspect of the RCD has been addressed (buoyancy and stability calculations, specifications for materials, safety equipment, environmental impact etc) and also an owners manual that tells the owner how to operate and maintain the boat to ensure safety and continued compliance with the RCD requirements.

This gets difficult with kit built boats, because the manufacturer, in terms of the RCD, is the person assembling the kit, not the company selling the kit.  This means that the responsibility for compliance with the RCD in this case is not that of Fyne Boats, but of the person who assembles the boat and "puts it into service" in RCD-speak. The individual who builds the kit has to ensure that it is built in accordance with the RCD requirements and has to obtain the necessary independent assessment that the boat, as built, conforms to the design as described in the kit manufacturers technical manual if they want to obtain a CIN.  

There are assessors around who offer this inspection service to home builders here, usually they are boat surveyors who, for a fee, will be able to provide the required inspection and subsequent validation of the kit manufacturers paperwork.

Failure to have a kit built boat inspected puts it into the same category as a home built boat, so it cannot be sold for five years.

It is perfectly possible to get a home built boat RCD certified too.  In essence the builder needs to prepare the two documents mentioned above and get the boat independently inspected.  It can then be CE marked, issued with a Craft Identification Number (which has to be marked on the stern) and will be legal to use, or be sold as an approved craft.

[Forthsailoar]

when I got my kit from Fyne Boats there was, along the plans, a form for me to sign confirming I'd built it according to plans, and if I recall correctly I could then send this somewhere to get an rcd certificate.

Hah - just found it. Scan attached! I never bothered.

Bottom line - build to plan, sign, send with cheque to RYA and receive  RCD certificate. No big deal.

[Jeremy]

It looks like the RYA are accredited to certify boats to the RCD requirements (for a fee).  This is the same as getting an accredited surveyor to do the certification, except in this case it looks like the RYA, as an accredited body, are happy to accept builder self-certification as long as it is accompanied by the Fyne Boats certificate of compliance (although I assume this only applies to Category D boats).

Presumably the RYA then issue a CIN and a CE mark (once you have paid them the fee) so that you can then attach these to the boat to show compliance.

[Anders]

Hi, thanks all of you. Very much apreciated.

It is actually very interesting this and will see if I can go on with it.
One way would be to have Fyneboats send a copy of the CE papers and go directly to the persons who would have to sign it here in Spain.

OR, maybe I could build a kit and have it certified somewhere else, could be the UK. And then bring the papers to Spain. This way it would be a CE certified boat imported from another EU country and then I think it would accepted.

I will be slow with this because I wont start another build this year ( this I say now) and I´ll have to reread some Spanish laws and consult authoritys. 

Building a Fyneboats kit is not my dream, but it would be better than building nothing. Or maybe I should build a Mirror dinghy. I actually like them.
And it would be a huge help to a lot of other builders here in Spain who feel totally lost with the legislation that we have.

forthsailor, what boat did you build.

[Jeremy]

Anders,

Creating the technical manual that is needed to demonstrate compliance with the RCD, at least for a category D small boat (one that is:  "Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to and including wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to and including 0.3m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.") isn't too hard and could fairly easily be done.  Similarly the owners manual shouldn't be too hard to write, either.

The only other thing required is a certificate, which you as the builder would sign to say that the boat had been built in accordance with the information in the technical manual.

As far as I am aware, category D certification doesn't require the builder to be qualified or approved in any way.  The certification body (like the RYA) is just providing formal confirmation that the builder has signed to take responsibility and provides the CE mark and CIN.

If people here are sufficiently interested, I could take a look at what would be needed for us to get our home built boats RCD certified.  I think it would be possible to put a sample as to how to write a technical and owners manual on here, together with the way to do whatever calculations may be needed to show compliance.  If anyone was interested then I don't mind having a go at producing a template for such a manual.

[Forthsailoar]

Fyne Boat Kits supplied an Owners Manual with my Walkabout kit. The Certificate of Conformity that I posted earlier is the back page. I presume John Welsford's instructions and plans are the Technical Manual.

The Owners Manual is very simple, I hesitate to post it as is presumably Fyne's copyright. However, it is VERY generic - for example referring to some things that don't make sense with this particular boat! Eg refers to Centreboard, but has a daggerboard; refers to towing by means of the bob stay attachment - no foresail, never mind a bob stay!

Might be worth asking Fyne if you could use theirs as a starting point? I do wonder if theirs is essentially repeating RCD cat D guidelines?

All the best

Osbert

http://forthsailoar.osbert.org

On Friday, 12 August 2011 at 13:24, Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Anders,

Creating the technical manual that is needed to demonstrate compliance with the RCD, at least for a category D small boat (one that is:  "Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to and including wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to and including 0.3m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.") isn't too hard and could fairly easily be done.  Similarly the owners manual shouldn't be too hard to write, either.

The only other thing required is a certificate, which you as the builder would sign to say that the boat had been built in accordance with the information in the technical manual.

As far as I am aware, category D certification doesn't require the builder to be qualified or approved in any way.  The certification body (like the RYA) is just providing formal confirmation that the builder has signed to take responsibility and provides the CE mark and CIN.

If people here are sufficiently interested, I could take a look at what would be needed for us to get our home built boats RCD certified.  I think it would be possible to put a sample as to how to write a technical and owners manual on here, together with the way to do whatever calculations may be needed to show compliance.  If anyone was interested then I don't mind having a go at producing a template for such a manual.

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[Jeremy]

Forthsailoar wrote

Fyne Boat Kits supplied an Owners Manual with my Walkabout kit. The Certificate of Conformity that I posted earlier is the back page. I presume John Welsford's instructions and plans are the Technical Manual.

The plans may form a small part of the technical manual, but there is a lot more needed as well.  The RCD needs proof of compliance with the structural, stability, buoyancy, environmental etc elements as well, some of which will require some simple calculations or tests to demonstrate.  Nothing too arduous, but the technical manual has to adequately explain how these requirements have been met, with a level of proof that could stand up to professional or legal scrutiny if ever put to the test.

The process is self-certification, with the person signing the certificate as the person who "puts the boat into service" (not the kit manufacturer, but the home builder) taking legal responsibility for ensuring that the boat they have signed for does actually fully comply with the relevant RCD certification standards.  This could be a weighty responsibility in the very remote event of it being tested in the courts following an accident.

Forthsailoar wrote

The Owners Manual is very simple, I hesitate to post it as is presumably Fyne's copyright. However, it is VERY generic - for example referring to some things that don't make sense with this particular boat! Eg refers to Centreboard, but has a daggerboard; refers to towing by means of the bob stay attachment - no foresail, never mind a bob stay!

Might be worth asking Fyne if you could use theirs as a starting point? I do wonder if theirs is essentially repeating RCD cat D guidelines?

You're right, the owners manual can be very simple, as long as it is deemed adequate for the job.  I have a couple of examples that I think could be published here with a bit of editing, to give a general idea of what is needed.

[Port-Na-Storm]

Somehow, the small boat manufacturers in this country are managing to navigate their way through the complexities of the RCD and I'm not aware of them being sued or even threatened by the prospect. If they were I'm sure we would read about it in the boating press.

Thankfully boat-builders are generally pragmatic people who will find ways to work their way around problems. Their customers are usually likeminded.

Here is a link to Swallow boats capsize test.  where Matt and chums are demonstrating just how stable their boats are and how they should be righted in the event of a capsize.
All done as part of their RCD self certification.

[Jeremy]

To be honest the RCD isn't really that onerous, as I've said before, at least for boats in categories C and D.

The liability issue isn't a problem for small companies, as they will be covered by their normal insurance, liability insurance they would have had to carry long before the RCD came on the scene.  It only becomes a potential (if very remote) issue for a home boat builder who self-certifies, makes an error, subsequently sells the boat with a CE mark and CIN as RCD compliant then has the misfortune to find himself at the wrong end of a court case as the consequence of an accident that may be wholly or partly caused by the error.  As I have said before, the probability of this happening is extremely small, but the consequences are, unfortunately, potentially devastating.

Provided the self-certification is done competently, then the risk is vanishingly small, I would have thought.

Jeremy

[Jeremy]

I've just done some digging around on the RYA website, as they are a Notified Body and can certify boats against the RCD.

They have some useful guidance on the content of the Technical Manual, Owners Manual and Declaration of Conformity, here:

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/RCD%20Documents/Appendix%207%20Technical%20Documentation.pdf

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/RCD%20Documents/Appendix%208%20Owners%20Manual.pdf

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/RCD%20Documents/Appendix%209%20DoC.pdf

Much of this will be overkill for a category D boat, but it might help understand how the process works.

[Anders]

<quote author="Port-Na-Storm">
Somehow, the small boat manufacturers in this country are managing to navigate their way through the complexities of the RCD and I'm not aware of them being sued or even threatened by the prospect. If they were I'm sure we would read about it in the boating press.

Thankfully boat-builders are generally pragmatic people who will find ways to work their way around problems. Their customers are usually likeminded.

Yes,..... But things are not that way where I live. If I lived in England or Holland, Scandinavia, I wouldnt worry at all. I would just build. If I ran into trouble, I would know that it was something that could be dealed with without to much problems.
Where I live, things are not that way. I know that if I build and I want to make it legal, that it will be very troublesome and cost me thousands of euros even though its just a 14´sail and oar dink.

Thats why I made this thread. In order to see if there is a way around the law that we dont know yet.

[Anders]

Jeremy

I´ve had a quick glance at the links you posted.

For a Cat D boat it seems to me that. there should be a hull ID, builders plate, owners man. with declaration of conformity and there should be some kind of flotation.  ¿What about stability test?

I can imagine that the flotation and evt. the stability must be done as a test with someone "oficial" signing a piece of paper?????

Timmo was told that the Fyneboats kits have RCD certification... So I wonder how much of the above will be included in that certification.

I want to say thanks a lot again. You are really very fast. Maybe I should move to England one day.

I will look into this again next week. I have to contact the guy who has been in contact with Fyneboats before I contact them. If not he might get pissed off.
The fact that Fyne boats have sold various kits to Spain doesnt prove anything if they were Canoes or Kayak kits. They are not included in our legislation

[Jeremy]

Anders wrote

Jeremy

I´ve had a quick glance at the links you posted.

For a Cat D boat it seems to me that. there should be a hull id, builders plate, owners man. with declaration of conformity and there should be some kind of flotation.  ¿What about stability test?

I can imagine that the flotation and evt. the stability must be done as a test with someone "oficial" signing a piece of paper?????

That's pretty much it, Anders, but there is no need for any testing for a Category D boat as you can demonstrate compliance using Module A, which is:

"Module A - Internal Production Control
This module is entirely self-assessment with no involvement of a Notified Body, or any other third party."

Compliance with structural and stability requirements can be by analogy with existing methods or designs.  So, for example, if you design and build a 15ft boat using stitch and glue ply, and use ply and panel sizes that are similar to those used on proven designs, that is all you need in order to demonstrate compliance.   Stability can also be demonstrated by analogy for a boat of conventional design, or you can use one of the free software programmes around to model the hull and give you all the hydrostatic figures (I use Freeship, easy to use, free and gives everything you need).  A print out of a Freeship analysis could be included in the technical manual.  Buoyancy is a matter of ensuring that the boat has chambers, foam etc that have adequate volume to keep the hull afloat when it is flooded and can be done by a quick calculation (the chamber displacement plus the hull flooded displacement must be greater than the weight of the hull).

Ideally you need to include a compliance demonstration method table at the front of the technical manual that lists all the RCD requirements and either marks them as not applicable or shows how you have demonstrated compliance later in the manual.  For category D most of the requirements are not applicable, as you've already spotted.

The only thing you need from a Notified Body is the CIN and approval to add the CE mark.  The RYA can provide this service, as can any other Notified Body, but I'm not sure what the fee is.

Jeremy

PS:  I spent many years getting aircraft through a very similar, but far, far more demanding, approval system, so pretty much know how it works.  The RCD is pretty easy when compared to aircraft technical requirements.  It helps if you understand "Euro-speak" too, as all these European documents are written in the same way, using the same format.  What is lacking for the RCD, as far as I can see, is an "Acceptable Means of Compliance" manual.  These are great, as they suggest ways that manufacturers can demonstrate compliance with requirements without each one needing to work it out for themselves!

[Paul H (admin)]

Anders wrote

Or maybe I should build a Mirror dinghy. I actually like them.

You can't go wrong with a Mirror - I love mine, she is the best boat I have sailed. Tigger is faster on all points than MilliBee and goes upwind like a dream and is as responsive and exciting as a windsurfer.

You'll have no trouble selling a Mirror either.

-Paul

[GregHBBR]

adminHBBR wrote

Tigger is faster on all points than MilliBee and goes upwind like a dream and is as responsive and exciting as a windsurfer.

The only trouble with a Mirror is that you have to be a midget to sail them - or perhaps I'm just mis-remembering after sailing a Tideway 10 last year.

[Paul H (admin)]

GregHBBR wrote

The only trouble with a Mirror is that you have to be a midget to sail them - or perhaps I'm just mis-remembering after sailing a Tideway 10 last year.

I agree the boom is a tad "height challenged", but I bought an adjustable rig kit on ebay:

      (item 170674964944)

I'll experiment with less mast rake and a higher clew. The CamCleat widget will also speed up raising the mast.

[Anders]

compared to other dinghys of its size, the mirror actually has a pretty high boom. I think I can get under it. I´m long but skinny and bendy.

After having a look at ebay and other sites... If I want a mirror, I think I´ll go to England and buy one. They are pretty cheap. And then I could meet up with you guys somewhere before heading south.

When on that subject.. Do you cartop mirrors. I would use some kind of cartop lifter I think.