Sails and gold leaf

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Peter Nobes Peter Nobes
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Sails and gold leaf

Hello everyone.  This is my first post on the nabble forum - I hope I'm putting it in the right place.  My Greenshank dinghy is almost finished and I have two questions:

Where can I find out how to attach (bend? lace?) the lugsail to the spars?  

Can anyone tell me which edition of Watercraft has the article Chris Perkins wrote about applying Stangarra's name and logo in gold leaf?

Thanks
Peter
gmatkin gmatkin
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

Dunno about gold leaf. Rigging is a bit of cat-skinning kind of question... I've got several relevant books, none of which are actually coming to hand I'm sorry!

This might be the one you need: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/media/books/tradsails/index.htm

In the meantime, I'd examine lots of photos. The Internet's full of 'em :-)

Gav
momist momist
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by Peter Nobes
Hi Peter,

Never without an opinion on most things; here's my 2d worth:

The books say that if you are lacing the sail to a spar, you should take the lacing in alternate directions round the spar.  To try to be clear, the lace comes down from behind the spar, through the eyelet and then back up behind the spar to come down in front for the next eyelet, and back up in front again.  This lets the lacing go loose when tension is taken off, so it slides easily along the spar.

Having said that, I never bother myself, and I just go round and round.  I have a short tail at the throat of the sail to attach to the lower end of the yard, a long lace from the second eyelet for lacing, and a longer tail on the last eyelet for the peak of the yard, which I double back to put some tension in the luff before running the lacing along.  What I will recommend is that you do not do a butchers lacing, where the lace goes round itself in a series of half knots.  This restricts any movement and prevents the sail setting well.

My boom is "loose footed" in as much as the sail is only attached at each end, and the sail can curve away from the boom in between.  But then, as you know, it's a very small sail and would not get a curve otherwise.  I adjust the tension on the boom to suit the wind strength.

Hope that's of some use.

Ian

On 14/06/11 09:47, Peter Nobes [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:
Where can I find out how to attach (bend? lace?) the lugsail to the spars?  

WalneyJohn WalneyJohn
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by Peter Nobes
Hi Peter,
This is how I lace my sail to the mast & spars

It seems to work ok for me and slides easily up & down the mast
Image taken from the wooden boat forum:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?113365-Lacing-vs-ribbands

Regards

John
WalneyJohn WalneyJohn
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by Peter Nobes
Peter,
Was it this edition
W73 January/February-09

Iain Oughtred Special: Sailing Acorn 15, Tammie Norrie, Gannet  /  Building Stickleback / Ness Yawl from Venice to Torino •  Velalonga • Klassieke Schepen Dutch trad boat show • New Blossom 2 • Roxane 5 • Grand Designs: Oughtred Penny Fee & Auklet

Someone should have a copy and be able to confirm this,
 
Regards
John
Ed-2 Ed-2
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

To save further searching... Chris has another look at gold leaf lettering in the new July/August issue which will be mailed out tomorrow.

Pete G

PS Many thanks to all UK-HBBR 'members' who helped us out at beale park.


On 14 Jun 2011, at 23:57, WalneyJohn [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Peter,
Was it this edition
W73 January/February-09

Iain Oughtred Special: Sailing Acorn 15, Tammie Norrie, Gannet  /  Building Stickleback / Ness Yawl from Venice to Torino •  Velalonga • Klassieke Schepen Dutch trad boat show • New Blossom 2 • Roxane 5 • Grand Designs: Oughtred Penny Fee & Auklet

Someone should have a copy and be able to confirm this,
 
Regards
John


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gmatkin gmatkin
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

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Peter

I've found my copy of The Working Guide to Traditional Small-Boat Sails. Now what do you want to know exactly - other than the whole book of course.

I'll be out of reach from Friday morning to Sunday evening, so you may want to get your dibs in quick...

G

--- On Tue, 14/6/11, gmatkin [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: gmatkin [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Sails and gold leaf
To: "gmatkin" <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, 14 June, 2011, 17:12

Dunno about gold leaf. Rigging is a bit of cat-skinning kind of question... I've got several relevant books, none of which are actually coming to hand I'm sorry!

This might be the one you need: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/media/books/tradsails/index.htm

In the meantime, I'd examine lots of photos. The Internet's full of 'em :-)

Gav


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Sails-and-gold-leaf-tp3062239p3063637.html
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momist momist
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by Peter Nobes
Hi Peter,

As I'm never without an opinion on most things; here's my 2d worth:

The books say that if you are lacing the sail to a spar, you should take the lacing in alternate directions round the spar (as in John's reply).  To try to be clear, the lace comes down from behind the spar, through the eyelet and then back up behind the spar to come down in front for the next eyelet, and back up in front again.  This lets the lacing go loose when tension is taken off, so it slides easily along the spar.

Having said that, I never bother myself, and I just go round and round.  I reckon the sail is too small to matter much along the head, and being a lug there is no lacing to the mast where it would be very important.  I have a short tail at the throat of the sail to attach to the lower end of the yard, a long lace from the second eyelet for lacing along the yard, and a longer tail on the last eyelet for the peak of the yard, which I double back from the yard end to put some tension in the luff/head before running the lacing along.  What I will recommend is that you do not do a butchers lacing, where the lace goes round itself in a series of half knots.  This restricts any movement and prevents the sail setting well.

My boom is "loose footed" in as much as the sail is only attached at each end, and the sail can curve away from the boom in between.  But then, as you know, it's a very small sail and would not get a curve otherwise.  I adjust the tension on the boom to suit the wind strength.

Hope that's of some use.

Ian
momist momist
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

Sorry for the double post - it never showed up in my email box for some reason!
Ian
Peter Nobes Peter Nobes
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by gmatkin
Thanks for all the suggestions.  I'll keep you posted re gold leaf once I've
read the new WaterCraft article.

It would be easier to talk about sails if I was standing next to the boat so
I could point and say "that bit of rope" etc - I don't know all the
technical terms.  It's a balanced lug rig so I only need to know how to
attach the sail to the spars, not the mast.  On the plans the sail is laced
to the gaff (yard?) but is attached to the boom only at the ends.

  - Should I be able to adjust the tension of the foot of the sail or
  should I lash it to the boom somehow at both ends?
  - On my 30sq ft sail for my sailing canoe, bought from Solway Dory, there
  is a piece of rope tied to the eye (cringle?) at the foot of the sail and
  then tied to a fairlead on the boom.  Is this enough?  I noticed some boats
  at Barton Turf had a number of turns of rope going through the eye as If
  it's under enormous pressure.  I hope that makes sense.  If a single turn of
  rope will do it I need to drill a smaller hole through my boom than if it
  needs 5 turns.

Thanks!
Peter
momist momist
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

OK Peter,

Your rig sounds very similar to mine (standing lug), and my system has worked for me for the last 26 years. :)

The tack of the sail (bottom forward corner) is tied to the forward end of the boom.  In my case I use a piece of cord permanently attached to the tack cringle (eyelet) and lead it through a hole in the end of the boom, back through the cringle, and through the hole again, and its then tied off around the three standing parts.  The only reason I go through the boom twice is to try to reduce the sawing action there, which wears the cord away.

The aft end of the foot of the sail has a similar cord, but a bit longer, as the boom is longer than the foot of the sail.  This similarly goes twice through a hole at the end of the boom, and is made off to itself.  This one I adjust at the time I rig the boat, tighter for higher winds, but really quite slack in light winds, so the sail can "belly out" along the boom and get some curve.  In very strong winds (whenever I'm likely to reef as well), I'll take it back to the cringle and around the boom to prevent the sail getting too far away from the boom, but I don't think this really makes much difference.  That end of the boom has two holes, one for the sheet to attach to, and also a captive block on a rope lashing around the end of the boom for the sheet to pass through.  I frequently sail with just a single purchase through the block, but my hands can't stand the strain in higher winds these days (old age tells), so then I run the sheet from the boom, down to the block on the rope horse, back up to the block on the boom and then to hand.  This will still run out easily even in light winds, but you need a longer sheet and that tangles around your feet when close hauled.

There's a very similar arrangement at each end of the yard (I think a gaff ends at the mast, while a yard crosses the mast).  Again, I take two turns of the cord, and tie it round the standing parts.  If the cord can "see-saw" through the holes in the woodwork, it will wear away quite quickly.  The peak of the sail has a much longer cord in this case, maybe about 18 inches or two feet, as I also use the two turn purchase to stretch the head of the sail along the yard before I make it off.  The tail of that peak cord I also use to tie on my ribbon pennant, for wind indication!  The lacing just re-inforces the attachment to the yard along it's length, between these two points.  As you probably know, it is important to keep the luff of the sail very tight (hence the tension in the halyard).  I regard the head of the sail as part of the luff, since it goes up at an angle and cuts the wind, so I'm quite fussy about getting that part taut.

I don't think there is very great strain on any of these tails, on a small sail, and the cord should be strong enough to take all the weight of the wind in the sail.  The multiple turns are more about making a firm connection prior to tying off the end, and giving something more substantial to tie the end off around.  Also, as I said, to prevent movement and therefore wear.  You could of course choose to tie off around the spars, but I feel this crushes the sail cloth against the wood and looks untidy.  I prefer to have the sail hanging off the spars rather than bound to them, apart from the lacing along the head.  Even there, I don't lace too tightly, relying on the tension of the throat and peak tails to keep the edge straight.

Oh, by the way, the cord I've used is some second hand soft braid about an eighth of an inch thick which I think came out of some old venetian blinds.  I could be mis-remembering though.  Most cords that size are very hard, but this is both soft and still substantial, so it works for me.  Where you could buy some of that I don't know.

On my boat, the boom has a crutch on the starboard side which rides against the mast (the boom passes to port of the mast).  On the boom, astride the crutch, is a loop of rope which passes under a cleat on the mast, and this is what stops the boom sliding up the mast while still being able to move around it.  This was in the boat plans, which I just copied, and it works after a fashion.  I've often thought a better solution would be good, but never come up with one.  I suppose a proper "kicking strap" is what I should experiment with.  I'm sure your boat will have a different arrangement there, as I've never seen another like mine.

The other consideration is how the yard is held to the mast.  On Robin, the halyard goes through the (stationary half) sheave at the top of the mast, and the yard is hauled up to that point, so the yard can't escape the mast.  However, when I take a reef, the yard flies out from the mast on starboard tack, and this is not satisfactory.  I've tried using a rope traveller on the mast, but it inevitably gets jammed and prevents the sail coming down as I rush towards the beach, which is not a good outcome.  I have now come up with the bright idea of simply taking the halyard _through_ the yard, and then tying a bowline around the mast.  The knot of the bowline holds the yard up, and the yard is held to the mast at any height, regardless of the reef.  Once the halyard is loosened, the bowline is free of any pressure and simply slides down the mast.

All this talk of reefing sounds impressive, but in fact it is only two more cringles, about 15 inches up the sail (I should measure it one day?), with similar tails of cord which I tie down to the tack and leech tails.  There are no ties along the sail, since it is so small anyway.  The excess sail just bunches itself up and is never any trouble.  Again, I just copied what was on the designers sail plan when I made the sail.

I hope I don't offend, trying to teach you something you already know.  I've no great experience of any other rigs apart from commercial arrangements on plastic racing dinghies, which are no guide to hand made rigging on small standing lugs.   No Cunningham tackle and stainless steel snap shackles here please. ;-)

Let us know how it goes.

Ian
Timmo Timmo
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by Peter Nobes
Hi Peter.

As you say it's normal to lace tightly to the gaff. Tension both ends then lace. Since the sail is staying on the gaff and not sliding around lacing pattern is a more matter of aesthetics than it would be were the sail laced to the mast and needing to slide up and down.

You clearly have a loose footed sail so attachment at each end of the boom is all that's required. Normally fixed firmly at the mast end. The attachment at the back end of the boom is more variable. Some (including Solway Dory on their expedition rig) prefer to be able to adjust the tension of the sail easily so they run the line from the sail through an eye or hole on the boom end to a jamming cleat along the boom. You can then slacken it for down wind and tighten it for windward sailing.

I tend to leave tensions alone while underway so I just tie it off. The amount of strain the fixing is under depends on sail size but more than two wraps of rope is probably unnecessary. I did do more once but that was to avoid cutting the line till I was sure how much I needed! You still want to be able to adjust it at some point so fewer is better. If it is under serious straint just use thicker rope!

Tim



From: "Peter Nobes [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: Sails and gold leaf

 It's a balanced lug rig so I only need to know how to
attach the sail to the spars, not the mast.  On the plans the sail is laced
to the gaff (yard?) but is attached to the boom only at the ends.

simplesimon simplesimon
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by Peter Nobes
Peter Nobes wrote
It's a balanced lug rig so I only need to know how to
attach the sail to the spars, not the mast.  On the plans the sail is laced
to the gaff (yard?) but is attached to the boom only at the ends.
Pete
With luck, you've a middling-large eyelet in each corner of the sail, and a row of smaller ones along the top edge (the head).

You need a hole or an eye or something similar (I'll assume holes for brevity) at each end of the spars (boom along the bottom, yard (since it's a lugsail) along the top).

Do the yard first - lash the sail fairly tightly to the yard using just the corner eyelets and the holes at the ends of the yard. Using a separate length of line then lash the bit between to the yard. Since it's not going to be sliding on the yard, how you do it isn't very important. I just used to use a series of half-hitches through the eyelets and round the yard as I reckoned it looked neater.

On the boom, lash the front corner of the sail (the tack) to the hole at the front of the boom, fairly tightly and strongly.

The other end (the clew) is more complicated. Ideally you need to hold the clew down to the boom with a strong lashing that's loose enough to slide along the boom. Then, with a second piece of line, you stretch the sail along the boom, but not too tightly, so the sail still has some curve when it's full of wind. You need two bits of line, you can't do with just one; I've tried and it doesn't work! Unless your sailmaker has told you otherwise (or has fitted lots of little eyelets along the foot (lower edge) of the sail), you don't need to tie down all of the foot to the boom; just the corners.

There you go! Halyard ties onto the yard probably about a third of the way from the front corner (you may need to experiment here); use the loose end to go round the mast to hold the yard to the mast. (Don't tie it tight, loose slides better). Downhaul attaches somewhere towards the front end of the boom (no more IMHO than a quarter of the way back); sheet attaches to the other end; hoist sail, and go!

Cheers
Simon


Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

In reply to this post by Peter Nobes
Peter, you sailed 'Rosie Mae' at Barton

This is my version for her and the end result of all the other quadrilateral sails I have ever set:

1.  The foot and head of the sail are spread by the boom and lug (spar) respectively.
2.  The tension should be sufficient to just prevent vertical creases, but not to induce any parallel to the spars themslves.
3.  Start with both by lashing them close up to the forward end first.  Infact I mostly use a shackle through an eye mounted by the forward end of the spar.
4.  Stretch the sail along the spar with a short length of line from the eye in the aft corner to the hole in the end of the spar in question, (see 2. above).  To get the pull even, it is best to come back round at least once and then I make it off next to the sail with a couple or more half hitches round the (bundle of) loops.
5.  Have enough left to tie the eye close to the spar otherwise it tends to sag away when wind pressure comes onto the rig.
6.  It sounds as if the sail is 'loose-footed', that is there are no eyelets along the bottom of it, so if you have secured both ends as described above that is all you need to do.  (The picture of 'Rosie Mae' is the best I could find to show the arrangement, but her sail is also laced to the boom, the same way you would need to do to the lug).

 

7.  Lacing the head to the lug; I disagree with the notion that butcher's hitch lacing causes problems.  To me it is much neater and the tension it provides is at right-angles to the pull of the sail.  It really doesn't matter which you decide on, this or spiral, as long as it is not so tight that it lays the eyelets flat against the spar, or so loose that it allows the sail to sag away.  It is easier to use a separate piece of line for this.

There you have it

Note the following - alternative side lacing as suggested and diagrammed further back up this topic is for lacing the luff to the mast on a gaff or gunter.  It is supposed to prevent the lacing jamming as the sail is raised and lowered, but the luff is not laced to the mast on any lug rig, so it does not apply to your set up.  In fact any such lacing on these rigs is a pain as it should be adjusted whenever you reef and it is much more effective to use mast hoops.

These used to be quite complicted to make and had to be fitted over the mast before stepping, but the simplest way these days is to make a short strop through a piece of nylon hose (this slides on paint and wood, unlike polythene which jams), with a soft eye in one end and a toggle in the other.  Wrap it round the mast and pass the eye through the eyelet on the luff before inserting the toggle.  These are free to slide and hold the sail at the correct distance from the mast whether it is hoisted, reefed or furled.  Here are the four on 'Tit Willow's gaff main and you can just about see the toggle on the top one against the sky:



If you want any more detailed pictures, let me know

Chris  
Peter Nobes Peter Nobes
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Re: Sails and gold leaf

Thanks for all the advice.  I've been busy varnishing but I'll have a go at the rig at the weekend.  I may then call for more help or seek asistance at the
Severn rally, where I'm hoping to launch the new boat.

Best
Peter