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Has anybody else noticed that there is a dearth of spars in the world, or at least the UK?
It's all very well if you get a kick out of hunting down amazing costly conifers, then doing shapely little things to them, but for the likes of myself who just want to get the canvas, well alright then terylene, up there without buying a whole production racing dinghy previously fitted underneath it, it's a bind. For a long time I was working on a several hundred mile beach in the Middle East and as I boat-built my way through my time there, I reckoned that spars were going to be a real problem, but no. Installed in the Royal Navy of Oman, I found all sorts of goodies from the drifting lifeboats (empty ones) and such that the naval vessels frequently bought back to the base, as a hazard to navigation and more from the sailing centre. Here personnel under training had conveniently capsized Lasers, Toppers and other craft in shallow water providing a steady supply of anodised aluminium tubing with variously bent ends. A magnificent supply line for small luggers and such. Infact 'Tit Willow's mast is from a lifeboat - mostly delaminated into two pieces in the sun and too narrow at the top, so I stuck the laminations back together and wrapped the top yard or two in a couple of layers of epoxied glass cloth. It is still good twelve years later. Her boom was the original bermudan mast (cut down) from 'Rosie Mae's rig when I got her and the gaff came from the mizzen spar of a lateen rigged Soling; yes, a lateen rigged Soling. In turn, 'Rosie Mae's mast is the loom of a lifeboat oar, her boom is from a Topper and the lug from a windsurfer mast. Then there was another baby lugger in between and a chum found enough for a gaff ketch from the same sources. ![]() Back here in Arundel a lady member of the Arundel Boat Club found that she wasn't really strong enough to lift her Foxer rig into place, (it works on a sleeve and into a hole like the Laser). So I had Arun Sails chop the top off, in the shape of a standing lug and for want of something more appropriate, I laced it to an old length of TV aerial mast. The rest of that tube was, you guessed it - slightly bent, so it ended up as the top end of my mock-up Yuloh. The Foxer lug works well, but the spar is sufficiently heavy to cause the crew some concerns when being lowered; the lady would like something lighter. For my part, as usual I have a lugger, or two in mind myself. Now we can cut to the chase; I really cannot find any good source of tubing for spars. When I was little, sailing clubs always had racks of old, damaged bits and pieces. What happened, are there bent tube bandits out there and a whole black market for broken dinghy spars? Proctor, it seems is now Selden Spars, though they don't seem to work between bank holidays; I have looked on line and trying to find a source of anodised aluminium spar tubing, or GRP, or even carbon fibre tubing is fraught with people who don't have a clue what I am talking about and only sell wholesale anyway. I have one quote for a carbon fibre tube, (32 mm ID - any good??), 2.5 metres at around £75; frankly, I don't think the present tube is anything like £75 dangerous on a reasonably second hand boat. I suppose it's really that my ageing grey matter cannot keep up with the actual cost of boating these days, but does anybody have any better suggestions? The ancient and marinated Chris W |
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Chris,
Round alloy tube is readily available at a reasonable price, the best for spars is grade 6082-T6, but 6063-T6 is just about OK for low-stress rigs, and easier to find. I buy tube from MG Metals in Chandlers Ford (not too big a hike from Arundel) and they will supply directly if you collect (you can pay cash for just a single length) or will deliver several items for a fee. Alternatively, you can buy tube mail order from the Aluminium Warehouse (http://www.aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk/). Delivery is a hefty £15, but if you're ordering several lengths then it doesn't hurt quite so badly. For a small boat mast, something like this: http://www.aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk/Aluminium-Round_Tube/c120_131/p18240/Aluminium_Round_Tube_%286063T6%29_21/2_in_x_16_swg/product_info.html would probably be OK. Maximum length is 5 metres, but at around £20 for 5m, plus delivery (probably less from MG Metals) it's not too expensive. Jeremy |
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In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Jeremy leads on alloy. One other option worth considering is the low tech bamboo route! Just received some 3 metre x 10 cm poles destined to become a mega xylophone for Kate's nursery. They are beasts, but strong and light. Am tempted to try a 5cm (or smaller) pole for a canoe mast Tim |
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In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Alloy tubes are the way to go for good, quickly made spars. For lug yards, all the early LR Scows were produced using a batch of reject alloy windsurfing masts. My LR Scow had the top 3m of such a mast for yard and the bottom 3m for the boom. I reckon cheap old glass winsurfing masts could be used for yard and boom for 65 sq ft sails, and masts for smaller canoe rigs.
Nice to see your Arundel lady still has her Foxer. I bought one last weekend and can confirm lifting the rig out is a strain in any wind, having been blow down the car park on my first attempt. I was lifting it out because I tried to furl it in place and was astounded to realise the battens were not vertical on the sail so it could not be rolled and that the battens were sewn in and made rolling up impossible, so went back to smaller unbattened sail, much more sensible. My 50/50 carbon glass lug spars were wonderfully light and a delight to use. The mast, yard and boom cost less than a new sail and gave a lot of pleasure in use. Brian |
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Good point about windsurfer masts. Swallow Boats use carbon fibre windsurfer masts on their boats as an unstayed mizzen mast, it seems to work well. I know (from Scrapheap Challenge experience) that old windsurfer parts are virtually given away by hire shops at the end of the season. The crew I worked with managed to get a stack of old windsurfer bits for free, just for asking, A quick tour around some of the local places may well find a few bits suitable for use as spars.
Jeremy |
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In reply to this post by Chris Waite
C Dubz,
The next time I head South take a look at Illusion's mast tackle. She uses a GRP windsurf mast that I have not used for a decade or two. All windsurf masts use a common system - 50mm internal diameter at the base, evenly tapered to about 35mm at the top. I was daft enough to cut the mast to 10 feet to fit within the hull but then realised it needed another foot - fear not as I slipped a standard mast extension in the mast bottom to add a extra foot in seconds. This is standard practice when rigging - you adjust the mast length to match the sail size, which is chosen by the daily wind speed. Better mast extensions are adjustable in 15mm steps to get the length just right. The mast base is the top half of a rubber universal joint, screwed to a block on the floor. Both the base and extension are a good fit for the mast and any other windsurf mast - basically its a Lego type system. So I could have an alternate rig with a stiffer aluminium mast and swap between the rigs in a few seconds. As others have said windsurf masts are readily available and cheap. To me their ease of use makes them the ideal solution for small boats. -Paul |
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Thanks for this boys
As explained in the original text, I know how useful ex-windsurfer masts are, it's the matter of trying to find them. I reckoned you'd come up with a good aluminoid answer Jeremy; similarly bamboo TimmO, but getting one piece from Tyne and Weir.... I don't actually belong to a real live sailing club any longer - too much faffing around being rescue boat crew, raising flags, serving beer and sarnys and such. I'll just have to do some surreptitious rounds of Chichester Harbour and see what I can beg. HBBR is so easy, interesting and FREE Free Christo the W |
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Hello Chris If it’s of any use to you, I have a windsurfer carbon fibre tapered mast that you are welcome to. Tony From: Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]] Thanks for this boys If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Taking-the-Tube-tp2900005p2905246.html To unsubscribe from UK HBBR Forum, click here. |
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Hello Chaps
If there are any spare windsurfer masts after Chris has taken his pick I'd be happy to find a home for them. cheers Graham |
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In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Did we disscuss ally tube diameters?
I want a 5m length at least as strong (bending) as 65mm Douglas Fir for MilliBee's main mast in a Gunter configuration. Logic says 65mm ally is ok?? Hopefully Jeremy and others can advise. Cheers Paul |
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65mm Douglas Fir, 5m long, unstayed, so a cantilever load, will deflect 107mm with a distributed load of 13.2 N/m at 99% stress (so just on the point of failure).
A 5m long, 2" diameter 6082-T6 alloy tube, with a wall thickness of 14g, unstayed, so a cantilever load, will deflect 1085mm with a distributed load of 72.8 N/m at 99% stress. If the load is reduced down to the max before failure for a 5m long, 65mm diameter Douglas Fir spar, of 13.2 N/m, then the deflection comes down to 197mm, maybe a bit too bendy, perhaps. Increasing to the next easily available size up, 2 1/2" x 14g, 6082-T6 (alloy tube is often easy to buy in imperial diameter and wall thickness, metric length...........) give a max deflection of 99mm at the max load of the 5m long, 65mm diameter Douglas Fir spar, evenly loaded to 13.2 N/m, or will take a max distributed load of 115.9 N/m with a deflection of 868mm. The closest match to the Douglas Fir, in terms of stiffness, seems to be 2 1/2" x 14g, 6082-T6 tube. It deflects slightly less under the same load, so will be a tiny bit stiffer, but will be massively stronger overall. In terms of weight, a 5m long, 2 1/2" x 14g alloy spare would weigh 4.22kg. A 5m long, 65mm Douglas Fir spar would weigh about 8.73kg. |
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Jeremy,
Thank you for the reply - my love affair with wooden masts is now over! 2.5 in by 14 swg is not easily obtainable. However 2.75 in by 16 swg is readily available, I'm guessing the OD increase makes up for the thickness decrease. When I wrote "deflection" I did not realise it meant unstayed in the engineering world. I'm looking for a beam comparison i.e. a mast with plain shrouds at the top. Although I expect similar benefits. regards Paul |
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All the stockists around here keep both 2" and 2.5" x 14g wall 6082-T6, so it's a pretty common size, but if you want to increase the diameter and reduce the wall thickness, then the figures are (same cantilever fixing, constant load per unit length, length 5m):
At the 99% stress point for Douglas Fir (13.2 N/m) the deflection would be 97mm and the peak bending stress would be 12%. At the 99% bending stress point, the load would be 107.8 N/m and the deflection would be 789mm. The mass of a spar of this size and material and 5m long would be 3.51kg. Just be aware that 16g wall will be more liable to dents that may reduce the load bearing capacity, by encouraging local buckling. I doubt it would be an issue in practice, as it would take a sizeable dent to have any noticeable effect, and you're not going to be putting massive compressive loads into a spar, either, and it's compressive loads that tend to be the main problem, because of Euler buckling. |
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Jeremy,
Thanks for the update. I've trawled through ebay and many websites and cannot find 2.5in by 14swg tube anywhere. Maybe the Google pixies will find it soon. ![]() Cheers Paul |
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Best bet is Yellow Pages and the phone. The supply of metals is rubbish online, as the majority of metal factors haven't yet grasped the concept of having a web site that they can sell through................
I almost always use MG Metals, who are now in Romsey, having moved from Chandlers Ford a while ago: http://www.mgmetals.co.uk/ Find a similar place, near you, give them a ring, and say you'd like to collect and pay cash. 9 times out of 10 you will get a pretty good price doing this. As a last resort there are a few online metal factors, like Aluminium Warehouse or Metals4U (https://www.aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk/ and https://www.metals4u.co.uk/ ), but their prices are really silly compared with buying locally. |
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Jeremy,
I rang MG Metals: "We don't stock 14 gauge at that size, people rarely ask for it. But we do have 10/16 gauge which is 3.2mm or 1.6mm" That will explain why all the internet outlets stock 10g or 16g! There are competitive prices for both. But one outlet in West Bromwich did have 14g, an email quoted £80+VAT for 2.5in x 14g and only 4m long. I'll try Lilleshall's in Gloucester tomorrow, but I'm not expecting Xmas to come early. The solution looks like it will be 2.75in x 1.6mm. I'll check my Mirror mast for the wall thickness, its 50mm OD. cheers Paul |
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That's interesting, as I have a 5m length of 2 1/2" x 14g 6082-T6 here that I bought from MG Metals around 10 years ago, as an antenna mast, when I was still struggling to try and get a decent terrestrial TV signal (I gave up in the end and fitted a Freesat dish).
If a Mirror uses a 2" x 16g mast, then a 2 1/2" x 16g tube should be more than strong enough for your boat, I'm sure. |
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This post was updated on .
I have a complete hang glider ali. tube airframe here in NW Kent, any parts of it available free to any HBBR people; as usual most of you live too far away to collect. I'll take some measurements tomorrow. From memory the leading edges are about 17ft, in two pieces with an internal sleeve, so might be good for a mast held up with shrouds.
It's a Hiway Spectrum if anyone knows what that means. Just measured: Two leading edges 1.75" x 17SWG (1.4mm) 90" + 84" plus thick wall internal sleeve. Total length 14.5 ft/4.42m. Both these have remains of PU glue which needs to be cleaned off; they held ribs in place when this was converted to a Bognor Birdman glider. Keel tube 1.75" x 17SWG x 11.5ft/3.5m. There should be some other tubes too but they are missing. Some stainless rigging wires. |
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