The ideal size of a raid and cruising dinghy for one or 2 two persons

[Anders]

Hi all and happy new year.

now that everyone is together here on the new forum, lets have a good one.

What would you consider to be the right size of a raid/cruising dinghy? useable by one person or with a light crew. (grown up + child, Couple, 2 smallish persons, dogs, cats, frogs, whatever)
First of all. lets make a definition of the specimen:
IMO, a raid/cruising dinghy is a craft that works well with sail and oars. If it doesnt work well with oars, then its just a sailing dinghy, no?
In order to make a good description of the craft, its not enough to use length. It doesnt say much about the volume and capability of the boat. Beam is equally important and so is weight with a rig. and to a certain point, width of waterline is important to
This brings us to the classical compromise. Sailing dinghys work the best with a a wide and firm bilge. Rowing skiffs work the best with a narrow waterline and evt. a slacker bilge.

My personal raid and cruising dinghy for one or 2 persons would be 400 - 450cm long ( 13 - 15ft) have a breadth of some 140 - 150cm (4´7 - 4´9) and a weight with rig of some 70 -100kg. Waterline width around 120 - 130cm. (47 - 51") I think I would prefer a single balanced lug sail, but other options like a lug yawl would be considered. I might consider having a small deck in front of the mast step to keep things dry and making the setup of a tent easyer. Since sailing is important to me, I would prefer a design which has some bouyancy in the rear section. (talking about the hull and not the bouyancy tanks) So no wineglass transoms or narrow sterned dounleenders for me. A design with a transom that doesnt drag or a canoe hull with a full rear section is what atracts me. The hull should have some bouyancy tanks build in, so that I would feel safe when things get tough. The thing should have 4 - 7 planks each side and could be built clinker ply or Stich&tape.

So now, folks. please tell me your personal boat.

[simplesimon]

I wouldn't argue with much of that. I might go for the long end of your limits though, provided the boat was not too heavy.

I think you may have to draw a fine distinction between raiding and cruising. Cruising to me requires a boat that will get you from A to B with a degree of safety and some comfort (or not too much discomfort). Raiding introduces an element of competition and a need for speed, which means that the comfort (at least) might get sacrificed.

As Uffa Fox wrote "There's nothing stops a boat like beam" (he wrote a lot else as well including references to weight and steamrollers but that may be a bit beside the point)  so for a fast boat I'd be looking for a slim waterline beam. (Think International Moths before they put the foils on - 11 ft long, waterline beam 1ft). OK a raid boat would not be so extreme, but a narrow waterline with a fair degree of flare to get crew weight outboard would be useful, if a bit tippy until you're used to it.

Simplesimon

[Mark Harvey]

It's got to be a Micheal Storer -- Goat Island Skiff. http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html

[Anders]

Simplesimon

I agree with what you say about cruising has to do with some sort of comfort. If I was to join a raid, I would prefer some comfort over winning the raid. If I could be in the middle of the crowd or at least not behind. Then I would enjoy the race and enjoy watching the other boats. Winning can be lonesome. I´ve been there in bigger boats.

And the Goat Island skiff (with all respect) would never be my raid boat. Its way to square for my eyes to like it.

[Forthsailoar]

It's a bit longer than your ideal, but it's a sail and oar boat specifically designed to your requirements: John Welsford's Walkabout. More here: http://forthsailoar.osbert.org

Happy New Year!

Osbert

Edited to remove original message! Sorry!

[BrianP]

Anders, you might like to look over this thread which describes the creation
of a new design called the Deer island Koster dinghy. 14'2" and she has come
out very nicely indeed. She woild be good for a Raid, make a wonderful
family dinghy and just make the world a prettier place.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?115448-Deer-Isle-Koster-Class-New-Design&highlight=koster

<http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?115448-Deer-Isle-Koster-Class-New-Design&highlight=koster>
Brian

[Paul H (admin)]

10ft 10in LOA gets my vote, there are over 70,000 dinghies that length that have been very popular for decades and seem to get absolutely everywhere at good speed on DCA rallies.

They are Mirror dingies



PS: When we reply to messages by email can we please try to remove the preceding message - there is no need to duplicate it.

OR if quoting a line is important, reply via the forum and the press the Quote Original button and trim the quote down to the important line(s)

Many thanks,
Paul

[Port-Na-Storm]

See, I told you they'd all be along with their opinions very quickly.

I think Simon is right when he differentiates between Cruising and Raiding, but as I'm not likely to ever have one of each I'll have to find a middle way.

I'm not particularly interested in racing and not interested in winning, but I don't like being tail-end Charlie either, so keeping up with the fleet, at least being able to see the fleet up ahead, is ok by me.

Ever tried lifting a boat onto a car roof? Unless its very small and/or a canoe forget it. You'll still need a launch trolley, so you might as well tow the thing. I have learned from experience that a bigish boat can be a pig to man handle on the shore by yourself so keep things as light and well balanced as possible.

Don't dismiss double enders, Iain Oughtred's Boats row very well and although initially tippy firm up once they've heeled a bit. Just add three feet to the length required to make up for that skinny rear end.

Cee Dubbs is right in pointing out the Gerrrof My Land attitude of the English. The Scots of course have no trespass laws as such and a "Right to Roam" policy which means you can effectively camp anywhere so long as you don't cause a nuisance. But for now, as I live in England, I'll want to be able to sleep and camp aboard.







My 15ft Pointy Ended Oughtred Whilly Tern had about the same internal living space as my 11ft Wolstenholme Coot , and both of them are just on the small side for sleeping/camping






























So for me if its got a Transom, it needs to be 12ft- 14ft and if it doesn't it needs to be 16ft.

The whole thing needs to fit in my garage on its trailer so that's 16ft max.

We end up back at  a 12-14ft dinghy.

Graham.

[BrianP]

There is a new design by John Welsford, that's sort small but big small. Cute and practical. Sleeping space, water ballasted as well. All in just under 12'. Loads of storage and buoyancy if swamped. It would seem it could be a super Solent cruising dinghy. With it's pram bow, it could almost be a spiritual successor to the Mirror.

I would really value your views on the design. She is called SCAMP.

 http://smallcraftadvisor.com/component/content/article/361

Scamp forum here

http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewforum.php?f=3

[Mark Harvey]

I thought that might be the case but it does tick a lot of the boxes for raiding and its very light easy to pull up onto a beach by yourself and fast!

[gregandginas]

simplesimon wrote

As Uffa Fox wrote "There's nothing stops a boat like beam" [...] a narrow waterline with a fair degree of flare to get crew weight outboard would be useful, if a bit tippy until you're used to it.

We've a ~1970s Pandora; great little sailing vessel that grew out of a dinghy and which SAILS like a dinghy.  Sailing performance came first, and the cabin followed.  Too many modern designs seem to work the other way: they seem to me to be floating caravans with one or two concessions to sailability!

At the other extreme, we muck about in (and sail) canoes.  Nothing really tops paddling performance: it's all very well having a vessel that you can fish from and host a picnic in, but if just playing about in it with a paddle in your hand doesn't put a smile on your face... why bother?

For a performance vessel that's car-toppable and which could be adapted for live-aboard use, I'd want something resembling a Raptor:



I've yet to paddle / sail in one, but followed one closely at the Open Canoe Sailing Group meet at Rutland last April, and was most impressed: I'm confident that I could propel it at good speed with a bent shaft paddle, handle it in breaking waves / surf and sail in even the most adverse conditions.... and get it flying when the conditions were more agreeable.

With the span out to the outrigger to work with, a live-aboard arrangement shouldn't be too difficult to sort, and the whole thing could go on the roofrack.

Now... a home build version from cedar strip would be a project and a half :D

[cornishhh]

Myself I'd go for something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwbc1exjeik
Of course I would-I'm building something similar!
I realise it wouldn't satisfy everyone's idea of aesthetics,and you have to scull rather than row(although it could be rowed if you chose to)
IMO practicality and comfort are far more important than aesthetics-in any case, when on the move you see other boats,not the one you are in.
I think the boat you would choose would be very dependant on the area in which you were sailing."Normal"boats are most common because they do most things reasonably well.
IMO Mirrors are a bit fragile and there isn't much room in them with all the buoyancy tanks.The rig is a bit complicated.People do cruise them of course,and Sandy McKinnon went from Shropshire to Romania in his.
I'm not sure you gain a lot of useful space with a pram bow when the boat is pointed on the waterline.The Welsford Scamp would be similar in this respect.
Canoes are fast(ie easy to drive under sail or human power)and light to handle ashore.They are a bit tippy for solo cruising IMO,although I think with external buoyancy tubes well above the waterline they would be worth considering.You could defate these when paddling.
The Raptor would be good in wide water without obstacles like moored boats.You would need a beach or a fairly wide slipway to launch or go ashore.A small cat(eg Wharram Hitia or Tiki 21)would have similar plus and minuses.They take time to assemble/disassemble.
Everything is a compromise,isn't it?
I've not posted on this forum before,so I'm not sure what will come out when I do.So;
The boat in the video is a 12ft Matt Layden designed Enigma.
Why do I like this?
Too many to list.
Above all,it is designed by someone who has spent years and covered 10's of thousands of miles in microcruisers.He knows what works and what doesn't.
Cheers
 

[Anders]

Graham, We are close to having the same ideas on a perfect raid/cruising boat. But how wide will you want it. Will you be rowing it. etc. That makes a huge difference.
For those wanting to row as well, Ross Lillistones Phoenix3 isnt a bad choice.

And I could also imagine myself in a Stornoway 12 streched to 13,5 ft. and with a balanced lug yawl rig


But another thing is that I´m not going to build any of them because I havent got spave for a trailer.

[boatmik]

Howdy,

I've been watching this discussion come into my inbox.

I almost fell over backwards last year to find a Goat Island Skiff in the Caledonia Raid.  It is really not quite what I had in mind.

However the boat did quite well, finishing third in class, fourth overall (hope I am getting this right) but surprisingly came third in every rowing leg despite being one of the few boats swinging a single pair of oars.  It also won one day when the wind was from behind and they sailed unreefed.  The boat was quite conservatively sailed - sensible for a jagged shored lake full of cold (by OZ standard) water.

I did have a preliminary drawing up for a longer version of the Goat with the aim of winning raids - but then I thought "how much is a person going to use it".  The Goat hullweight is normally around 130lbs with some boats using Paulownia framing being down to 105lbs.  The normal weights are within a weight range where two people can move the boat around.

So far, most of the boats aimed at winning raids have been bigger, heavier and more complex.  I am wondering if another approach makes sense.

Another experience from last year was sailing on a mountain Lake in Oregon with me along in the Goat and two people in a 19ft Coresound.  They weren't able to keep even close in 8 to 12 knot winds.  The reason was the complication of the boat was a barrier to efficient sailing.  A gust or a wave and I could trim and make use of it, but by the time the bigger, heavier coresound had responded the gust or wave was gone.  I don't know if my style of sailing is practical for a long race - the level of concentration might favour a bigger, heavier boat which will move with good average speed without much attention.  But something to think about.

The comment that came up about the Mirror brings about a good point.  It is a bit small for two adults and the required gear, but it is simple and light with a brilliant track record.  So maybe it would be good to see how it did one up if sailed hard.

Like boats with fleets the Mirror is highly developed and sailing close to its potential level because of decades of development and refinement.  Most of the RAID boats lose out on this, so more sail area or more stability or more length SEEM to be the way to compete.  But I wonder if it really makes much sense - how effectively were the various "RAID specials" being sailed?

I do think the interesting idea is to take a boat that has practical use for normal purposes and look at using it in a RAID.  That approach will attract a lot of people to RAIDing, whereas "RAID Specials" will tend to make it look too complicated and stressful for regular sailors.

My thinking is lighter, simpler, more efficiency and a boat for general use.  On the more efficiency front we are building a database of information for the Goat Island Skiff on this page so we can start to get some of the levels of efficiency that regularly raced classes have.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/design/foils/test-for-google-docs/

Maybe there should be a 16ft and under subclass for RAIDs where there must be evidence of 5 or 10 boats being launched previously?  Keep it within the capability of normal people and restrict the boats so that efficiency starts to be the most valued factor.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[BrianP]

Anders, you mention you haven't any space for a trailer. Also in your opening post you ask what boats do we have.

No trailer means car top. the widest boat I can fit to my Kari-Tek roofrack loader system is 40" and that is the width of the Solway Dory sailing canoes. They are light enough to car top as well. I can lift and load on my own, but usually ask for help just to flip her from her trolley over onto the dropped down Kari-Tek. The trolley separates and stores in the boot.

Ok, so she meets moving and loading needs. Can she be made stable enough - yes. I use the outriggers designed by Solway Dory for exposed sea sailing. Most of the time they are well clear of the water as you can see here in this video

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy816d_-Fi8

This means one can have a narrow and easily driven quick boat that also has reserve stability.

next issue - rowing or paddling. No problem long double paddles are designed for their canoes as is an outrigger system that allows the canoe to be rowed. A lot of the forum members struggle with this sitting facing forward or going backwards more efficiently but unable to see the kingfishers! With this set up you can chose to use the best method for the condtions and water you are in.



Is she safe. Yes fully decked and very buoyant.

Can you sleep in her. Yes - cockpit is 6'6" long with no centreboard and seats slide out of the way. She also has a tent designed.

http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/news/boom-tent-for-the-shearwater


Because of the outriggers she is stable enough to move around in when at anchor.

Is she fast. Yes. I have sailed my out at Hurst castle in 20 knots with two rolls in the 4m mainsail, and she was flying across the harbour at planing speeds. Not planing like a broad beamed dinghy, planing like a narrow catamaran hull.

Solway do build wooden example, such as Coriusk


but do not normally supply plans. I do however have a set of plans for a solo 14' version.

I think the Solway Dory Shearwater is a very clever design. A fantastic minimum Raid boat. The most important thing though is that they are a joy to sail.

Brian

[Chris Waite]

Guys, I asked our Illustrious Administrator if he could move my comments of yesterday to this heading as being more appropriate and he tried, but cyberspace was too quick for him and my bundle of verbiage escaped, so here it is again:

The HBBR fraternity largely build dinghies of a moderate size and we meet either for day-pottering and whenever we can manage a ‘raid’ of a few days along some waterway, if the auspices will allow.  We are split into the paddlers able to see the way ahead, but wearing their canoes and the oarsmen with enough room to call their own, but a somewhat unsatisfactory view of where they have been.  There are some sailing rigs on both sides of the divide.

The next problem and this does apply to the paddlers particularly, is the requirement for a camp site.  It is a strange thing in the UK, that you can tie up your boat on much of the land edging both inland and coastal waterways, but the moment you get a tent out, society’s brow begins to furrow and you are likely to be required to desist.  It is difficult to produce a canoe, or even a rowing skiff, that is narrow enough to be paddled, or require rowlocks on outriggers, while still being stable enough to safely sleep in.  I can think of some ways; have yourself a ball….  or some other fiddly flotation devices.

The answer seems to be a small dinghy set up to camp on board.

How Small is Small?  There are those who have sailed the Atlantic in boats with ‘feet LOA’ in single digits and a canoeist who slept in his kayak while paddling from Australia to New Zealand, but let’s back away from the extremes.  I cannot think of a single-handed upper limit either but it would be an interesting project trying to get an Ocean 60 down the upper reaches of the Thames.  With the best will in the World, our boats spend a long time waiting for us to use them so they need to fit the storage space available; for many of us that will be something about the size of an average garage – say sixteen feet.

If you have more space, are canoe fixated, or younger and more virile than the HBBR chums who routinely meet up to make their watery way to the pub, then sixteen feet on top of the car, or what you will is no problem; otherwise the boat lives on its trailer.  To fit a boat (and its trailer) into a garage, even for a refit, means taking the length of the hitch into consideration, so that is down to fourteen feet LOA and if you want to be able to get around at least one end, without opening the door(s) and avoiding wet epoxy on your trousys then we are looking at twelve feet LOA.

Nil Desperpanicum!  One and a half sheets of butt-jointed ply are twelve feet in length.  Spread along a strake around the curve of a hull removes perhaps six inches LOA, but makes it easier in the garage.  That is good enough for me; but you may be saying to yourself, “Well why not shorter!?”  Again, this is your choice, but the shorter the boat the lower her displacement hull speed and most of our water-work is done off the plane, so it counts when keeping up with the herd.

The next thing is your tolerance for appearance and construction methods.  This is one delightful aspect that makes us HBBRites such a bunch of rugged individualists.  Some will tolerate no less than a traditional clinker beauty, while others are happy with a simple flat sharpie all chines, horizontals and verticals; this is good.

Traditional is beautiful and modern is functional; my personal choice is for functional simplicity with as many traditional curves as I can squeeze in - “You have achieved perfection in design, not when there is nothing more you can add, but when there is nothing more you can take away.”    Antoine de Saint Exuprey

Enough for this post, but I do have a cunning plan

Cee Dubs  

[Timmo]

Because we also tow a caravan on occasions I am accustomed to having to cartop whatever boat we are taking.

I regularly carry our 13ft Acorn Skiff on the roof with no problems.



I have used 2x2 timber to extend roof bars to accommodate beamier hulls, regularly carry two 18ft (5.5 metres) canoes and have put up to four canoes on the roof. As a rough rule I figure if two average people can pick the boat up and get it on the roof then the car can handle it!

Tim.

[Anders]

Lots of nice ideas and lots of very different boats. This more or less means that the ideal boat doesnt exist and that its a very personal thing.
I like that and can see myself using a lot of these boats for cruising around.
I´m not going to build or won the ideal cruising dinghy at this moment. I havent got the space to store it. But maybe/hopefully one day.
I will hopefully start the building of a 11´version or Tom Dunderdales Iceni 11, which he has kind to devellop for me. Just a small sail and oar universal dink that can be cartopped. I will post some more when I start getting serious about the build. Hopefully this winter.
 We also have a small caravan and we went to France (and Portugal) with a Ply canoe. Its just so much more fun to have a boat with you when you are with a caravan. But the canoe is mostly for very sheltered waters and I prefer something a little bit more open.

Good to see the new forum starting up with some very interesting posts.

[Chris Partridge]

That's my kind of raiding. Nothing goes upwind faster than a 4x4 with a roofrack, and that caravan looks sooo much more comfortable than sleeping on board....

[David Bewick]

Anders,

This is a great question but I am afraid we are no more likely to agree on the answer than we are to find the holy grail!  For me the length is "about 14 feet".  The problem is that a 14 foot boat can be all things to all men - a skinny skiffy thing at one end of the spectrum and a great lump of an almost credible pocket cruiser at the other.  I have looked at these and at most things in between and I think the critical thing is the right combination of sailing and rowing ability with enought room to carry whatever you need to carry.  Oh, and it has got to be pretty!  I also love yawls, not for their appearance but for the extra control they give especially when you are short handed.  I went through my now vast collection of study plans time and time again and changed my mind so many times.  Just to give you a flavour:

John Welsford Navigator - nice functional boat, not convinved about the rigs or the rowing ability

IO - double enders too big for their useful size, Tammy Norry (or Penny Fee) are very getting close, with yawl options

Selway Fisher - 15' Coble and Petite Brise are possibles

Wolstenholme Mallard, etc. - nice traditional dinghies; not sure how well the bigger ones row.  Few rig options

Duck Trap Matinicus Double Ender - absolutely bloody gorgeous; I might have to make one one day even if I never use it!

Francois Vivier -lots of lovely designs (why do we see so few of them over here?).  Ilur is a cracker but just a bit too big and heavy for single handed use.  Some others are also very nice but are ony accessible as kits.  Aber seems to be a good combination of sailing and rowing ability but I am not sure about the lug sail.


So, the "answer" for me is Aber but with a modified balanced lug sloop rig option (like Ilur) that Francois is going to design for me.  I have now ordered the timber for the framing and the planking so I am getting past the point of no return (well almost!).

I know I have compromised on the yawl option but not on much else, I think.

Best regards,

David.

PS. I was a "fence-sitter" about the new forum but I do like it.