Illusion Hull For Sale

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Paul H (admin) Paul H (admin)
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Illusion Hull For Sale

Due to lack of space imposed by SWMBO my Illusion hull drew the short straw and has to go unfortunately. Illusion is a 10ft by 38ins micro cruiser cloned from Matt Leydan's Elusion which is a mini version of the Paradox.

She takes a standard windsurf mast and I had great sucess with a Mirror sail cut down to a lug sail. I rowed her in the Thames 2011 raid - hard going mostly because I was unfit but also because the rowing seat was a makeshift affair and the consensus amoungst the experts was the seat should have been higher. Chris Partridge has some good ideas for an adjustable rowing position to make the rowing easier.

There is 6ft between the bulkheads for living aboard and a small amount of dry storage. I stress small because I took far too much junk with me. There is space though for 1 or 2 rucksacks though, so if you take the backpacking route of minimal hardware you will be fine.

She is decked and with ballast should handle rough water. Matt built a semi-enclosed cabin in Elusion for the around Florida challenge - the only thing that held me back from a small cabin was the need to row on rivers. Some sort of removable cabin would be ideal and there are 6 captive nuts under the decking for securing a cabin.

I have not fitted chine runners but you could - a lee board worked fine. I only want to sell the bare hull with rudder assembly, the trailor will probably turn into a launching troller for Tigger my Mirror dinghy and the solar panels will move to Tigger.

To find out more about her read this topic:
http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Tales-of-Illusion-td2740952.html

If you are interested in her or have any questions just ask, or email me directly if you prefer.

-Paul
Jeremy Jeremy
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Sorry to hear your looking to sell Illusion after all that hard work.

One thing you might want to look into is the dreaded RCD, though, as I believe it is now illegal to sell any home built boat that is less than 5 years old.  You may have a let-out as Illusion isn't completed, but it might be worth checking.  I only realised this when reading a note on Chris Perkins' boat building blog a year or so ago, and checked with a boat builder who knew the regulations who confirmed that this was indeed the case.  One consequence of this regulation is that if you do ignore it then apparently you may continue to carry the liability for the safety of the boat in the event of someone subsequently having an accident.

It seems a daft and wholly inappropriate bit of EU legislation to me, but then the same could be said about a lot of other EU legislation, too (and I should know, as I was once a "Notified Body" for granting approval, in EU parlance.............).

Jeremy
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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There are some things which shouldn't be mentioned in polite company and the RCD is one of them.

But since you have mentioned it.....................................

There are of course several caveats sub clauses and exemptions embedded within the Recreational Craft Directive all of which apply to Illusion.

Firstly, Canoes don't count. There is no definition of what a canoe is and i'm here to tell you that Illusion is a Transom Stern'd Canoe, and is therefore.

Next; Boats based on traditional designs using traditional materials, are exempt.
Righto, Illusion is a traditional design. I have studied it very closely and it has a pointy bit at one end, is flat at the other end and even has a skeg, a very traditional lea board and a rudder.  When the wind blows you raise a bit of cloth on a stick and when it doesn't you waggle two other sticks around or go to the pub.
It is made of wood.

I cannot think of a more traditional boat. It is exempt.

Failing that we can go for self-certification. Which could be a lot of fun.
The stability test requires the crew to be able to balance on the Gunwales without the boat capsizing. And if and when she does capsize she should be able to support her crew whilst fully swamped, ( might need to blow up the Lilo a bit more Paulie) and the crew should be able to carry out a self recovery.

I'm sure all of this can be ably demonstrated at Cobnor! Bring her down!

Meanwhile here's another opportunity to see the early sailing trials, if I can get the technology to work. if not click here;

Illusion at Swanwick 

 
Timmo Timmo
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Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

Definitely a canoe!

And there's also the point about Illusion being incomplete. Does the RCD apply to part built? Surely it could only be applied to finished craft!

Tim

From: "Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 11:24:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tim O'Connor <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

There are of course several caveats sub clauses and exemptions embedded within the Recreational Craft Directive all of which apply to Illusion. 

Firstly, Canoes don't count. There is no definition of what a canoe is and i'm here to tell you that Illusion is a Transom Stern'd Canoe.
Jeremy Jeremy
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As I mentioned, the "being part-built" bit might be a let-out, but then again it might not.

Frankly I think the regulations are barking mad when applied to home built small boats, but the ongoing liability bit would concern me.  One of the odd part-time jobs I do is provide expert witness services, usually to insurers.  One thing I have learned is that we are becoming as litigious as our cousins over the other side of the Atlantic and insurers will do all they can to pass the buck.

Once upon a time one could sell something like a small boat as "sold as seen" and absolve oneself of all liability for anything that might happen involving it from then on.  Now I am not at all so sure this is the case.  As an example of how daft things are getting, when providing evidence for an alleged manslaughter as a consequence of negligence case the defence barrister quoted an example of a mechanic who gave his neighbour advice on changing his own brake pads.  The brakes subsequently failed and the neighbour was killed in the resulting accident.  The mechanic (who hadn't touched the car himself) was charged and convicted, as the law deemed that as a professional he had a duty of care to ensure that the person he had advised had done the job properly.

Jeremy

Frogsider Frogsider
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Another exemption applies if the boat is a restoration or rebuild of a boat built before the legislation came into effect.

I have an ancient wooden dinghy rotting away at the bottom of the garden.  I've removed a couple of bits of timber which could form the nucleus of a restoration.  The tiller, a old wooden cleat and part of the transom with the name and number carved into it should make the "rebuild" exempt.  
Timmo Timmo
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In reply to this post by Jeremy
I'm with those that feel the world has gone mad! 

Did you hear of the story some years ago in the US. A lady tripped over a toddler in a furniture store and hurt herself. Sued the store and won. The bit that left the store owners feeling most aggrieved was that it was her own child she'd tripped over! 

Nice story, may be apocryphal but no dafter than other judgments you hear of.

Can't the solicitors who propagate that level of litigiousness be sued for the impact it has on the freedom so many people to innocently and reasonably go about their business?

Yes, I'm a grumpy old man!

From: "Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

The mechanic (who hadn't touched the car himself) was charged and convicted, as the law deemed that as a professional he had a duty of care to ensure that the person he had advised had done the job properly.

cornishhh cornishhh
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In reply to this post by Frogsider
I don't wish to sound flippant here,but has anyone in the whole history of the RCD had anything bad happen to them as a result of selling a small,homebuilt dinghy?
Paul,I think you should keep Illusion and finish her off.
I'll have no-one to copy otherwise!
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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In reply to this post by Timmo
The RCD was allegedly invented by the French (quelle surprise!) as a way of protecting their own boat building industry.  So as usual the Europeans use the legislation of the EU to their best advantage while the good old Brits use it as a stick to flog themselves. Some of the rules within the RCD make very good sense in terms of safety but the five year rule just doesn't make any sense at all. However as a good honest citizen Paulie you will just have to explain to Dylis that it is impossible to sell Illusion for another four years.  
Anders Anders
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The RCD is not a nice thing BUT........ You guys are so lucky you have to follow the RCD and not something else. Here in Spain having to follow RCD would be like heaven compared to what we have..... You cant imagine Spanish legslation.

On the other hand, in Scandinavia you can do what you like, no rules, no registration etc. And its the part of the world with most boats per capita......

Jeremy Jeremy
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Not only is the application of the RCD to small home built boats daft and completely OTT, the "five year rule" part makes it completely pointless.  Why on earth does a home built small boat magically become RCD exempt after five years?  What will have changed in that time to suddenly make the boat compliant when it may not have been before?

With regard to part built projects I think things are a little murky, as no one seems to know for sure just what constitutes a "part built project".  When I bought my electric Winsome hull as a part-built project (I bought just a bare hull) we looked at the RCD problem.  In the end, the paper exercise to show compliance (built in buoyancy, stability calcs, construction record) was done so that it can be shown to be RCD compliant via self-certification if need be (although we believe that it was probably RCD exempt as a part-finished project).

The liability issue is probably more theoretical than real, as I think the probability of anything coming back to bite you as a seller is remote.  The problem is (as I've unfortunately seen first-hand) the impact of being found liable for selling what the law will see as an unsafe boat (simply because it's not RCD compliant) in the event of a serious accident doesn't bear thinking about.  Apart from the possible criminal liability (which could result in a long prison sentence) the civil liability in terms of damages could mean you lose your home and all assets.  One case I was involved with (as a witness) involved criminal case legal costs alone that came close to £2M, spread over a 3 year period, plus unknown civil damages.

Jeremy
Anders Anders
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Jeremy
The 5 years rule is there because you are meant to use the boat for 5 years so that it can be said that its safe to sell to others. You, the builder is doing the test.
Personally I would be EXTREMELY HAPPY if we had the same rules as you do in England. This doesnt mean that I think the RCD is a good thing but its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than what we have.

Also, does this 5 year rule have any effect at all? who controls that a boat is 5 years old? Do you guys at HBBR register your creations?
Many rule and laws are there for burocracy to have something to do (if not it would have to disappear) Very often rules and laws are not being used. In Spain we have very strict rules about house building in the countryside and we also have millions of illegal houses.
Jeremy Jeremy
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I'm not at all sure that the "five year rule" is there as a practical safety test at all, as there is no practical safety proof that arises from a boat being five years old, nor is there even any proof that the five year old boat has actually been in the water.  

I believe that the "five year rule" is there as a protectionist measure, one that was heavily influenced by the boat building industry.  When the RCD was being drafted there was no effective representation from home boat builders.  There was a very powerful lobby group from the boat building industry though.  What I believe happened is that the "five year rule" was a move by the boat building industry to prevent "serial home building", in effect the industry wanted to ensure that people making a small boat every year or two and selling them couldn't do so without getting their boats RCD approved.  As getting RCD approval for one-off small boats is prohibitively expensive the boat building industry has very effectively put a barrier in place for any home boat builder who wants to turn their hobby into a small business.

I've seen exactly the same protectionist measures forced into EU legislation by other industries.  Home built aircraft  are another area where compliance with the (largely industry driven) regulations makes it prohibitively expensive to design and build your own small aircraft; something that was commonplace here for very many years before we were slammed with excessive regulation.  What annoys me is that safety hasn't improved because of this additional regulation at all - accident rates for light aircraft remain at the same level as they have for many years.

No one controls the "five year rule" and there is no requirement to register small boats here unless they are used on inland waterways.  There is no record of the completion date, but given that many people document their projects on the internet completion dates are fairly easy to pin down.

No one seems to police the rules either, but that is also true of light aircraft.  Policing relies on the fear of litigation in the event of an accident, something that is a reasonably effective means of ensuring that most people comply.

At least for very light aircraft (under 115kg empty weight with a wing loading of less than 25kg/m²) we have managed (after a very long battle, in which I was one of the players for a while) to get the overly onerous regulations relaxed, so that people can once again design and build small, light single seat aircraft free from all regulation except for needing a pilots licence.  If I can design, build, sell and fly aircraft with a total weight of around 200kg around our skies with no regulation, why can't I do the same for a small boat of around the same weight?

It simply doesn't make any sense at all to have more rigorous safety regulation on small home built boats than that for small home built aircraft of a similar weight.  It is one of the reasons that convinces me that that there is no safety argument to be made for the "five year rule" at all, it is simply a means for industry to suppress the number of home made boats that come on to a fairly small market.

Jeremy
Timmo Timmo
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In reply to this post by Anders
For many years I was associated with a business in Madrid. There I was introduced to the concept of 'Latin Law'. 

As it was explained to me it seems something is illegal only when the law says it is AND someone chooses to apply the law. So it's only illegal to park your car on a pedestrian crossing if the Policia decide to notice and enforce the law that says it is. If they simply drive past (which they generally did) it was not that you'd got away with breaking the law. It simply hadn't been illegal!

During the Maastricht debate (all those years ago) I was in a bar in Madrid and a Spaniard in the group I was with was asking why Britain was making such a fuss about the treaty. I confessed to not being entirely clear about the details but said things about the constraints of the social chapter and possible impact on business. He looked astonished and said "What… we aren't to do it… we just sign it! Why you no do the same!!"

Some days the legal system in Spain used to drive me nuts, other days I just stood in awe of the Spanish approach to law.

Tim.

From: "Anders [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

Many rule and laws are there for burocracy to have something to do (if not it would have to disappear) Very often rules and laws are not being used. In Spain we have very strict rules about house building in the countryside and we also have millions of illegal houses.

Jeremy Jeremy
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Isn't the same broadly true in Italy, as well?

I recall driving from my hotel to a conference in Livorno years ago and being chastised by other motorists for stopping at red traffic lights.  When I arrived at the conference I asked my Italian Navy Officer host about traffic light rules.  He just shrugged and said that "traffic lights were only for guidance"............

Jeremy
Anders Anders
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Jeremy

I agree, the 5 year rule is made to protect big scale builders. But it was told that it was in order to avoid poor designs.

In Spain the rules for homemade boats are 100% tuned in order to stop home boat building, which is efectively has done. Noone here or very few builds.

For boats more than 250cm long we need a naval architect to follow the build and have the project proven by the provincial group of architects. Besides that they will make stability curves and flotation diagrams. If we dont do so, we cant register the boat which is obligatory and in this case, the Guardia civil does give you a fine. We have a lot of illegal inmigrants coming to the shores in small boats. So its not so easy to cheat as it is to build an illigal house.
The whole thing means that a small boat will cost two or three times more than it would do if you build it yourself in England.
We have no 5 years rule so if you want to sell your boat, you have to make a CE certification for it first. (did I say expensive?)

Its horrendous and it makes the RCD look like heaven. I would have started the building of a boat years ago. Something like an Oughtred sail and oar, Welsford Houdini, whatever.... But I hate dealing with borocracy, so I decided not to complicate my life.

Canoes, Kayaks and other similar small boats are not included. So I´ll try to make the little rowing skiff I´m building now enter in this category.  If not, I´ll use it outside Spain. I´m 50 km from Portugal.
Jeremy Jeremy
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As Spain is in the EU, doesn't that mean that you can just follow the RCD rules?  Can you pretend that the boat was built outside Spain, in another EU country where the RCD applies properly?  It sounds like your national regulations are far worse than even those the EU impose and designed to line the pockets of Naval Architects!

One of the most popular small boats ever designed, the Mirror dinghy, was built by the thousand by people in their garages and sheds.  It revolutionised small home boat building during the 1960s and 70s and made boating accessible for those with little money.  Many people built Mirrors, sailed them for a couple of seasons then sold them and moved up to faster boats, like the Laser.

This cannot happen today, because once you've built your Mirror dinghy you cannot sell it for at least five years, by which time it's very likely that the youngsters who first used it will have lost interest in sailing it.

Personally I think that it's about time that the RCD was changed to remove this restriction on sale of home built small boats.  It serves no demonstrable safety purpose and is simply a means for the boat building industry to restrict competition.

Jeremy
Timmo Timmo
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In reply to this post by Anders
What if you had made it in Portugal and brought it into Spain completed?

Likewise, what if I wanted to bring a homemade boat from England for a holiday? What constraints would I face?

Tim.

From: "Anders [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Illusion Hull For Sale

Canoes, Kayaks and other similar small boats are not included. So I´ll try to make the little rowing skiff I´m building now enter in this category.  If not, I´ll use it outside Spain. I´m 50 km from Portugal.

Chris Waite Chris Waite
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In reply to this post by Jeremy
Unless someone has already mentioned it and I have missed the moment -

Have accidents with small craft been reduced by the RCD, or is it the same, as with the light aircraft situation you have pointed out Jeremy?

CW
Jeremy Jeremy
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I doubt there are any statistics to show one way or the other as to whether accident rates have changed since the introduction of the RCD.  Somehow I very much doubt it, as, just as in flying, 99.9% of accidents are human error rather than a failing in design or construction, I suspect.

When a group of us were lobbying for a relaxation of the regulation of very light aircraft we managed to put together some statistics that showed that as weight decreased safety increased (in terms of accident numbers and numbers of deaths and serious injuries).  This helped our argument for deregulation a fair bit.  I suspect the same is true of small boats, once you remove the human error element by users.

The problem seems to be that we often regulate things because they are easy to regulate, yet miss the really important issue that has the most impact on safety.  Small boats are a good case, as it's impossible to make a small boat safe under any operating condition; the way to reduce deaths and injuries from small boat use is to educate small boat users on boat safety.  

The RCD itself is OK, probably about right in terms of the level of design and construction regulation that's applied to different sized boats, although it's perhaps a little too onerous for boats under about 20ft.  What is daft is the 5 year rule and the application of regulation to home built small boats.  It isn't based on a safety argument at all, just a commercial one, which is one reason I believe that it is poor legislation.

The RCD is full of non-safety related regulation, which seems odd when it is supposed to be there to enhance safety.  For example, paddled (or pedalled) canoes are exempt from RCD certification (following lobbying from the canoe associations who argued that a canoe could not be made to meet the stability requirements).  However, if you fit oars or a sail to a canoe it is no longer exempt and has to have RCD certification; the exemption only applies to canoes propelled by human power, excluding oars.  The fact that a canoe fitted with sails or oars most probably cannot be made to comply with the RCD requirements seems to have been overlooked.  What makes this even more ludicrous is that sailing surfboards are exempt from the RCD, again because they can't comply.  If someone can explain the safety argument that makes a windsurfer intrinsically more safe than a sailing canoe, to the point where it doesn't require RCD certification, then I'd like to hear it.

Jeremy
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