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Hi Everyone
Another request for advice, please, with apologies (what would I do without you lot?) I'm using Sikaflex for the first time, to bed in keelstrip: and boy! is it messy. What would help is - - any words of wisdom on technique, please - is white spirit the best/only solvent? - cleaning up 'squeeze' - straight away? wait till cured and then - what? sharp blade? - cleaning hands (the not-very-helpful data sheet says don't use solvents: Swarfega bounces off, metaphorically speaking) - anything else I ought to know. Thanks once again, in anticipation. Michael |
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Alcohol is a better solvent than anything else, I've found, but it is still messy stuff to clean up. I've used both meths and isopropyl alcohol to clean up uncured Sikaflex, both work OK, but the isopropyl is more pleasant and is safe to use on your hands (it's the same stuff that's used in antiseptic swabs, I believe).
I've found the best way to clean up is to scrape off the excess with something sharp (whilst it's still wet), keeping the scraping implement clean by wiping with an alcohol wet rag or bit of kitchen roll. Once you've scraped the worst off, you can use a rag or bit of kitchen roll wet with alcohol to wipe down the remaining bits. You often need to do this latter stage several times to get rid of the smears, using clean bits of rag/kitchen roll and clean alcohol each time. Neither isopropyl nor meths should attack your paint, but test an area to be sure first. If you end up with the stuff on your hands and don't get it off before it cures, then it will be there for some time, as the stuff sticks like s**t to a blanket! |
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I can only really offer sympathy. I used Sikaflex to glue the two plastic sail tracks to the yard and boom of my carbon tubed lug rig. I was one of the worst jobs I have ever had to do. I think the Sikaflex was old and getting towards or past it's use by date. It really was a dreadful job. Did manage to get things cleaned up eventually.
It was worth it though. Never had any problems with the tracks and the lack of any fastening holes of any kind meant the tubes were sealed and therefore provided good support buoyancy if the boat was every capsized on her side. I do seem to remember there was a Sikaflex thinner? This article talks about Sika Cleaner 205. http://www.ehow.co.uk/way_5661265_tips-working-sikaflex.html Brian |
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In reply to this post by Michael Rogers
For your "sharp" tool, I would recommend old credit cards (I always save mine for these types of job). You can sharpen it up with fine sandpaper, or just cut it at an angle, and shape it to any shape that seems convenient. I favour a shallow diagonal across the length of the card leaving 1cm square end with a rounded corner and a sharp obtuse angle. Keep it clean as said elsewhere, using whatever solvent you find works. The credit card seems more friendly to your paint or other finish, and doesn't cut into the base material.
Ian |
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Chris Waite |
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In reply to this post by BrianP
Brian
Where did you get the carbon fibre tubes for your rig? Oh and while your explaining things to me, remind me of the name of the wood importers down in the docks at Southampton.... Memories, who's still got one? Thanks Christo the W. |
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Chris: I got my thin carbon fibre tubes (but they do all sizes) from
http://www.woolmer.co.uk/ But I was able to call by and collect, delivery can be expensive (so are the tubes.) Will be interested to know where Brian got his. I thought the trick was to find someone throwing out old windsurfing masts. Tim. On 23 Jul 2012, at 14:56, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote: > Brian > > Where did you get the carbon fibre tubes for your rig? |
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In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Chris,
There's a firm on Hayling Island that makes them: http://carbonfibretubes.co.uk/ Bit of an odd bunch, in my view, at least they were when I tried to buy some tubes from them a few years ago. If you popped around in person they might be easier to deal with; I found they were very slow to respond with a quote otherwise. I ended up buying from Woolmers, the people Timmo has linked to, but they aren't the cheapest by a long way. There's also these folk, equally pricey: http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/Category/Carbon-Fibre-Products/Carbon-Fibre-Tube/Roll-Wrapped-Carbon-Tube.aspx Have you thought of making your own CF spars? Not very difficult, as you can buy CF woven sleeve and just pop it over a mandrel, wet it with resin, wrap it in tape and hang it vertically while the resin cures (the hanging vertical bit is just to get a straight spar). The mandrel can be a bit of cheap PVC drain pipe, which you can either wrap with plastic sheet (if you want to pull it out) or you can leave it inside the finished spar if you're not hypercritical about weight. Sadly it's cheaper and easier to buy the CF sleeve from the US, these people are pretty good: http://www.solarcomposites.com/ |
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Alternatives to carbon fibre:
Birdsmouth laminated wood. You can get strong and light spars from quite cheap timber. I've only made canoe spars this way so far but it was fun and the results were good. Bamboo. Very environmentally friendly, light, tough and quite cheap, though individual canes do vary in quality and I suppose the knuckles can be a nuisance. http://www.bs-bamboo.co.uk/bamboo_wide_canes.html http://www.ukbamboo.co.uk/prods/bamboo-poles.html Alloy tube, and here I'll defer to Jeremy who will be able to quote suppliers and specs off the top of his head. Though, if you can source carbon fibre at the right price that's cool too. Tim. |
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If you do go for alloy tube (a lot, lot cheaper than CF) then I'd recommend calling MG Metals at Chandlers Ford. Their website's unhelpful, but they are great to deal with over the phone and in person. I have their printed catalogue here, so could give you some help on stock sizes and even do some rough sums to give you an idea of deflection under load. At a guess (and knowing that alloy prices are very volatile) I reckon a standard 5 m length of 2 1/2" diameter 14g wall alloy tube would cost under £30.
The online alloy suppliers are good, particularly the Aluminium Warehouse, but they don't tend to stock a wide range od 6082-T6, usually they have 6063-T6. 6082-T6 is a fair bit stronger than 6082-T6, but has the same Youngs Modulus as 6063-T6, so deflects the same amount under load. For a mast 6063-T6 is probably OK, as I suspect it will be stiffness that will be the limiting factor, rather than ultimate strength. Both alloys are pretty corrosion resistant and fairly hard (for aluminium alloy), so easy to cut. |
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My carbon tubes were from the supplier Jeremy listed, carbonfibretubes.
They would not deal with me last time I asked, cannot now be bothered with the hassle of cash or private buyers. I was talking to the guy who runs Anglia Yacht Brokerage. He makes a Drascombe variant and his lug rig is all carbon tubed. Being trade he does manage to use Carbonfibre tube but he has to buy batches at a time. Anyone building a larger 18' day boat could do well contacting him since he might be glad to sell a set. Confirm Jeremy's suggestion of going alloy tubed. Great low cost, high performance way to go. Especially for the simple tube requirements of a lug rig. Carbon tubes are very nice, and my rig was a pleasure to use, but much more expensive. Easy enough to paint the tubes so they look traditional. Windsurfer masts make very nice yards and booms, always lots on eBay. Bit under spec for a free standing mast, but it would work as a nice mandrel for putting more layers over using the Stoller mesh. Keep your eye on eBay and you could have some nice spars by the time the hull was finished. Chris, we bought our ply from Edens in New Milton, but they were bought by Meyers and the New Milton depot closed. So the Southampton branch is now Meyers. http://www.meyertimber.com/ Totton Timber are also very good, especially for hardwoods and cedar. They have some lovely long lengths of sapele for gunnels. http://www.tottontimber.com/ Brian |
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tony waller |
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In reply to this post by Timmo
I don’t know anything about Sikaflex. Is it the same as or similar to polyslphide sealants used in the building trade? At Beale Park a few years ago I had a brief sail in a sixarene (?) whose Scottish professional builder used a building sealant (I don’t know which one) instead of Sikaflex. Is there anything special about Sikaflex these days?? Tony From: Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]] Alternatives to carbon fibre: If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/In-the-black-stuff-Sikaflex-tp4025432p4025441.html To unsubscribe from UK HBBR Forum, click here. |
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There are several alternative to Sikaflex, all fairly expensive, though. Sikaflex is a polyurethane, rather than polysulphide, sealant and the same stuff is used both in the building trade and for automotive repair, as a seam sealant. I used to be able to buy Tigerseal from a small body shop nearby, for about half the price of Sikaflex. As far as I could tell it was close to identical, same smell, same strong adhesion to near enough anything. It was only available in black, though. I've not been able to find a cheap source for it since, though. The stuff I've been using more recently has been Bond It PU18. About half the price of Sikaflex and the same stuff as far as I can tell. It also comes in black or white. The last lot I bought came from here: http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/prod_13222/sealants-and-adhesives/sealants/bond-it-polyurethane-pu18-adhesive-sealant-white.html |
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Michael Rogers |
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In reply to this post by Jeremy
Thanks for all the practical advice (and sympathy), armed with which I persevered and finished the task of bedding in four shortish lengths of keelstrip (won't go into details as to why four; has to do with shape/structure etc of Trouper's bottom), which are also bronze screwed. Funny thing this home boatbuilding, at least for us one-or two-off builders. By the time you've finished a task which you won't be doing again, you've more or less mastered it. However I'll be quite glad not to have to wallow in Sikaflex again, not extensively anyway - that spreading sense of panic as the black gloop gets everywhere.
Thought I'd feed back briefly, in case it's of any help/interest. Jeremy, I tried isopropanol and meths as thinners: my paint finish, or at least its glossiness, didn't like either. I found white spirit worked best. Thanks for the credit card tip, Ian. Once I had worked out what a sharp obtuse angle was (no, I couldn't have described it any better) I was away. It wiped off handily on my solvent soaked cloth. I may have made a small contribution to SMT (= Sikaflex Management Technology), which I pass on in case no-one else has thought of it (they probably have). The more manageable and docile the bead of Sikaflex is, the less the resultant gloopery. An industrial mastic gun is mega-unwieldy, and once you get a bead going from the nozzle, it doesn't want to stop - result, lots of unwanted black stuff in all the wrong places (one could re-write the fairy story of the magic porridge-pot). Solution - turn a 50 ml plastic disposable syringe (mine have the so-called catheter nozzle -don't ask) into a mini mastic gun. Pull out the plunger, fill with Sikaflex from the industrial howitzer, replace plunger, voila! Small, handy, right sized bead, and a slight pull back on the plunger gives instant stoppage of the bead. For a big job, more than one syringe could be pre-loaded: I used about 1 1/2, though it would have been two if I had had my brainwave before the initial mess which provoked this thread. I have become a great enthusiast for plastic syringes - not just this idea, but for mixing smaller amounts of epoxy (for which I usually use 10 ml syringes) than the pumps deliver; more recently for mixing small amounts (down to a few ml at a time if needed) of two-pot paints; and for drawing up and moving volumes of liquid from one container to another without messy tipping. They don't always have to be discarded after one use: the ones I use for epoxy mixing (one each for resin and hardener) have been re-used for yonks, ditto for measuring and adding, respectively, 'Compound B' and thinners to batches of two-pot paint mixes. Just keep the relevant syringes standing in labelled jars. There are several medical supplies sites which sell them. The 50 ml size work out at about 80p a time if you get 25+. Compares favourably with (eg) disposable paint brushes. I do rather cringe at all this 'disposable' culture, but it ain't half handy! Sorry, getting carried away, I'm sure everyone was there first. On CF tubes, I do agree about the Canvey Island lot. They seem to go out of their way not to do business with you. I found windsurfer masts confusing because WSers talk a strange language about flexibility etc. I was looking for an alternative to the aluminium mast which was supplied to me (and, it occurs to me, is available if anyone has a use for it -?!) when I converted Cadenza (my Swallowboats Storm Petrel) to junk rig (no, I won't go on about it:once bitten twice shy and all that) . My 'advisers' were used to really big rigs, and the mast was massively over-engineered for my purposes. It weighs about 20 kgs, and poor Cadenza, who is very tender, just couldn't cope. Her CF mast weighs about 4 1/2 kgs, and is brilliant. I believe Jeremy will confirm that CF has all the right attributes for an unstayed mast. I 'cheated' (ie no use to anyone else, sorry) getting my two CF tubes, in that Matt Newland of Swallowboats, as a personal favour to me as a customer, got me two (64 mm diam I think) from the firm - Dutch, called something like Prince Tech - he uses for his Bay Raiders etc. NOT cheap!! CF is pricey, no two ways about it. But I do think it's extraordinary there isn't a sailing-friendly UK-based firm to which the likes of us can turn for reasonable market-rate CF tubing. Enough, no more, 'tis not so sweet now as it was before (the Bard) Michael |
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Michael, thanks for the tip about the syringes. I used to re-fill my printer inks with cheap ink kits, each of which came with a syringe and rather large and scary needles. I'm now glad I kept them, although I will no longer refill inks with them (that printer died of the wrong ink).
Ian |
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Chris Waite |
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Thanks for the sparring information chaps
At least I have a few options now CW |
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I've never used a "proper" marine sealant such as Sikaflex but to assemble Four Candles' various bulkheads and other parts I used CT-1, about £8 per 290ml cartridge from builders merchants. It's described as a hybrid polymer by the manufacturers and sticks great to wood and dirty grp and fingers. I can also second Michael's opinion of using plastic syringes to dispense glues and sealants. Even better but too extravagant for home use, I used glass syringes with ground glass pistons to dispense Perspex cement and other glues (making laboratory equipment) because these always run smoothly; sometimes plastic syringes with rubber pistons can be a little jerky.
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