Jotun Penguard HB and Hardtop HB advice, please

[Jeremy]

I'm in panic mode, filling and fairing the hull of the Duck Punt, ready for Beale, and could do with some advice as to how forgiving the above two pack is.  In the past I've used the International stuff (a long time ago now) and found it to be pretty forgiving, in as much as it tended to smooth out the odd scratch or two.

I'm hoping that the high build primer will be fairly forgiving, as I'm running out of time to continue filling and wet sanding to get the hull ready for paint (as it is the interior is going to have a "working" finish!).  I'm not after a concours finish, as the top coat will be satin finish anyway, just something that looks reasonably presentable.

Any advice anyone can offer on this stuff would be most welcome.

Jeremy

[Randonneur]

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 I'm hoping that the high build primer will be fairly forgiving, as I'm running out of time to continue filling and wet sanding to get the hull ready for paint (as it is the interior is going to have a "working" finish!).  I'm not after a concours finish, as the top coat will be satin finish anyway, just something that looks reasonably presentable.

Any advice anyone can offer on this stuff would be most welcome.

Jeremy

I used HB primer on my Paradox. It is extremely simple to apply with a mini foam roller and it sands superbly. Problem is that most of it ends up as dust or sludge in the bottom of a bucket (depending on whether you wet or dry sand).

The top coat I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I used it on the bottom of Johanna and had a heck of a job. It dries almost instantly. You get one shot at getting it right, it really needs to be sprayed (IMO) to get any decent finish. I applied it in cooler weather than today, and even well thinned it was a nightmare to roll and tip. I used International Toplac one pack as a top coat and it was a dream to use in comparison.
HTH
Pete

[Jeremy]

Thanks Pete, that's a great help.  If it ends up being sanded off then that's OK, as it'll save weight...................

Not good to hear of the problems with the Hardtop HB, though, I was hoping it'd be as easy to use as the two pack International stuff I used on my old yacht.  I just applied that with a foam roller, tipped it off quickly with a brush and left it and it dried to a finish that could have been mistaken for one that was sprayed.  The only snag with it was that it made the foam roller go squidgy after ten minutes or so.

Hopefully the weather will cool a bit in between me getting the primer on and the topcoat................

[Paul H (admin)]

Penguard HB is excellent - it worked perfectly on MilliBee. The few areas of dodgy paintwork are where I forgot to use Penguard HB.

Hardtop is an art form. Avoid hot weather so apply in the early morning or evening. Direct sun is a disaster - it will skin in the blink of an eye. Using a brush is stressful to say the least, it requires skill and experience.

Mix small batches methodically, about 10-15 mins worth and you will be ok. Gentle mini-rollering is the trick - aim for lots of thin coats.

EDIT: Also discard the rollers on a regular basis, old and new batches don't mix well and the foam dissolves after 20 mins.

Wear gloves as its impossible to clean your hands. Warn the neighbours about the heavy solvent smell.

-Paul

[Jeremy]

Thanks for that, Paul.  

What's the Penguard HB like at covering imperfections in the surface?  

Because I used the cloth I had to hand (300g/m² but rovings, rather than smooth or crowsfoot weave) is a bit coarse I've had to try and fill the rather rough weave with epoxy and microballoons.  This is always a slow process of fill, wait for the stuff to cure, sand, fill, wait for it to cure, etc, etc.  So far I've only filled and sanded the outside (the inside can stay with the cloth weave showing  - I'll call it a non-slip finish.........), but that's taking for ever, and isn't much fun in this weather.  If the HB will fill the remaining imperfections a bit (which are around 80 grit size scratches) then that would make life a lot easier.

[Paul H (admin)]

HB Penguard is thick and fills scratches, leaving an eggshell finish with a few roller marks. Its the ideal undercoat and bonds very well to sanded and washed epoxy. You won't get a mirror finish - more like shiny eggshell.

Paul

Sent from
my HTC

[Jeremy]

Thanks again, Paul, I was hoping this might be the case (I'm getting fed up with filling and sanding..........)

[tony waller]

Wouldn’t ordinary polyester car body filler be perfectly OK? Cures quickly and is easy to sand (anything with epoxy in it is very hard work).Tony

 

From: Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 24 May 2012 19:02
To: tony waller
Subject: Re: Jotun Penguard HB and Hardtop HB advice, please

 

Thanks for that, Paul.  

What's the Penguard HB like at covering imperfections in the surface?  
Because I used the cloth I had to hand (300g/m² but rovings, rather than smooth or crowsfoot weave) is a bit coarse I've had to try and fill the rather rough weave with epoxy and microballoons.  This is always a slow process of fill, wait for the stuff to cure, sand, fill, wait for it to cure, etc, etc.  So far I've only filled and sanded the outside (the inside can stay with the cloth weave showing  - I'll call it a non-slip finish.........), but that's taking for ever, and isn't much fun in this weather.  If the HB will fill the remaining imperfections a bit (which are around 80 grit size scratches) then that would make life a lot easier.

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[Jeremy]

tony waller wrote

Wouldn’t ordinary polyester car body filler be perfectly OK? Cures quickly and is easy to sand (anything with epoxy in it is very hard work).Tony

There are several problems with car body filler on a boat, in my experience.  Firstly it sucks up water like billy-oh, even if only immersed for a short time, as the filler powder they use is talcum, which is pretty absorbent.  I made the big mistake of fairing a small yacht keel with the stuff around 25 years ago - never again, as it blistered all over the place after a year.  The second problem is that it goes off very quickly in warm weather, making it hard to use over a big area.  Finally it's very heavy, and actually much, much harder work to sand than epoxy and microspheres, or even the slightly harder epoxy and Microlight 401.

Epoxy and microspheres has to be the easiest filler to sand, plus it has next to no weight and it is so smooth to apply (because the microspheres "roll around" in the resin) that it makes covering a large area fairly easy.  It's still a fair bit of work when looking at  doing the inside and outside of a 16 ft hull, though, which is why I've decided not to fair the inside.

If you've not tried epoxy and microspheres for fairing I suggest you give it a go.  The stuff is a pain to mix, because the dry microspheres act as a fluid and swill around on top of the resin, but its worth the hassle just because it makes sanding relatively easy.  The only downsides are that you can't fill deep areas with it (as it's not very strong) and you need a good primer (because sanding leaves micro pores in the surface from the abraded spheres).

[Chris Waite]

Rather late in the day, but I have a boat to build....

I was a bit confused (happens easily these days) by the difference between Penguard HB and Hardtop HB, so eventually it occured to me to check the tins I recently bought and have used on 'Polly Wee'.

Low and behold, they are Hardtop HB.  The stuff mini-foam-rolled on just fine, though it was indoors and a few months ago and I agree about avoiding heat particularly in direct sunlight.  Lovely 'satin' finish and I will be interested to see how it holds up.  The name 'Penguard' has just come drifting back through the mist of ages and I have realized this has to be basically the same as the clear Penguard-concrete-floor-sealer that 'Tit Willow's hull was smothered in before overcoating with Jotun's shiny two-part polyurethane of the moment - some twelve years ago.

The combination from then seems to have done twelve years without any sign of trouble, though I did overpaint with two-part again, mostly in search of a new colour scheme.

Now, only fourteen pieces of wood left to stick to the hull and I can get on and paint some more, ready for the Lech-raid

Loads of time

CW

[Timmo]

Well, my ongoing inability to get any kind of decent finish on a boat continues. Just put a coat of Jotun Hard Top Flexi on Zelva. Looks like I put it on with a trowel and smoothed it with a rake. Tried the roller, really didn't work on the lapstrake, needed to brush ion all the crevices anyway so ended up just brushing. That bit marginally better than rollered area.

Not sure what to do. There's enough paint on there for the purposes of protection. Can I survive the embarrassment of putting it on display? Have I the time (let alone energy) to sand it and try again (though my record historically is that I simply repeat the dogs breakfast finish all over again)? Can you sand this stuff? If so, how 'set' does it have to be before you try.

She looks good inside. Just the hull outside that's depressing me.

Tim.

[Paul H (admin)]

Tim,

Don't worry about the hull - you will have a grimy green tide mark after 5 days in the Thames! If she's baking in the sun you can sand tomorrow, but try the fingernail test.

Paul

Sent from my HTC

[Jeremy]

Thanks Chris.  

I've now done a couple of small test pieces and found that the Penguard HB goes on pretty well with a roller, even in this hot weather.  The Hardtop HB is a totally different beast though, as it seems to flash off in seconds, making it difficult to use.  All told I'm not confident I could get a coat of the Hardtop on in this warm weather.

My current plan is to try and get a coat of Penguard HB on and see how it looks.  I will then finish off a few odds and ends on the boat and if the weather cools down before Beale I'll have a go at getting a coat of Hardtop HB on.  If the weather stays as it is, then it'll go to Beale in just the primer.  Luckily both the Penguard HP and the Hardtop HB are the same colour, grey, so it won't be that noticeable that it's only in primer (I hope!).

[Paul H (admin)]

Jeremy,

The long-term forecast is a cooling down the next 7 days. So yes wait for better painting weather.

Paul


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[alopenboat]

On 26 May 2012 at 9:59, adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> Jeremy,
>
> The long-term forecast is a cooling down the next 7 days.

Thank goodness for that, I don't want rain like last year but I am
really not designed for this sort of weather.

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

[Port-Na-Storm]

alopenboat wrote

On 26 May 2012 at 9:59, adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

I don't want rain like last year but I am
really not designed for this sort of weather.

Ahh Memories

[BrianP]

This site lists Jotun Hardtop HB at £80.50 for 5 litres and also Hardtop XP two pack enamel at £54.99. That's a good saving and makes International's Perfection at £45 for 750ml look ridiculous. Has anyone used the XP two pack enamel. I have the Snipefish to paint and the Riff so I guess 5 litres could be useful if I just stick to white.

http://www.paints4trade.com/top-coat-paints-123-c.asp

Brian

[Jeremy]

I agree about the International price being plain silly, Brian.  The jury is still out as to whether the Jotun is as straightforward to apply as Perfection, though, as I found that Perfection was pretty easy to use and I got a very good finish with it.

You might want to compare the prices from your link with SML, the people I bought the stuff from: http://www.smlmarinepaints.co.uk/ as I have a feeling that SML might be slightly cheaper.

I'm now donned up in Tyvek overall, with mask and gloves at the ready, about to go and try the Jotun stuff out.  I may be some time.........................

[Michael Rogers]

I'm following this thread with a sort of horrid fascination, because I have Jotun paints (including Hardtop) all lined up to start my painting, the (otherwise lovely) sun continues to beat down, the dog lies panting under the bushes in the garden, and the temperature zooms up into the 20s by 8.30am or so (this is rural Cheshire). Only 2 weeks ago it could scarcely totter above 10, which would have been ideal for painting. As a subspecies, we boatbuilders are hard to please, I've decided.

Tim, I've no idea whether this will help in either the long or short term, and I haven't (yet) road tested it. Andrew Denman builds (professionally) in Tasmania for Swallowboats. From the pictures which have appeared on the Swallowboats forum, the build and finish quality of his work is strikingly good. In this context, of two pot paints which dry too quickly, he suggests that if you can get enough paint on (presumably several coats), you can then wet-and-dry smooth and finish off with a T-Cut type of polish. Sounds like a lot of work, but he says you should end up with a mirror finish like the classiest spray paint job. It might at least rescue something from apparent disaster. I may have to go there myself shortly!

Michael

[BrianP]

I can also confirm Michael that the method works. A friend painted his small yacht with two pack and it looked awful when he finished. As it goes off it slumps on the vertical surfaces. He was heart broken.
However his brother used to work in car spraying, so they set to with wet and dry and polisher and when finished it looked like a pro paint spray.

I found Perfection very hard work, so I reckon all the two packs are possibly similar. I did find two pack Epifanes varnish no trouble at all, so perhaps their paint is better to use, but it is also very expensive.

Brian