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Has (metal) keel band been discussed on this forum? My impression is that it can be a somewhat contentious issue. For one, Matt Newland of SwallowBoats, who designed the Trouper 12 I'm building and supplied the kit, doesn't like it. However, particularly on small boats like mine, launched and recovered on various beach/slipway surfaces, it does seem to make sense. I wish I had used it on my present boat, Cadenza.Unless I'm dissuaded by people who have more experience than I have (and I am dissuadable!), I think I'll fit it from new on my new boat.
To overcome the objection of longer term water seepage into wood round the screws (which is presumably more of an issue for boats on a mooring, not my scene), I thought I would fit by screwing into wood, then remove, drill the screw holes out larger, plug the larger holes with epoxy, and refit with the original screws screwed into the epoxy plugs. And bed the whole shabang in Sikaflex. Should make for a firm fix? Does that make sense? With regard to width, does it make more sense to have the strip the whole width of the stem/keel/skeg-at-stern - in which case one would presumably not round off the (wood) edges: or to have the strip slightly narrower, rounding the edges to suit? I think Classic Marine supply widths with which I could do either. I had brass in mind, with bronze screws. Advice and comments would be very much appreciated. Michael |
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I don't know about keels, but on my heavy rudder (which, when
beaching, is lifted by dragging on the ground) I used split copper water pipe. I sawed the pipe down the middle then fitted round the edge of the rudder by tapping with a light hammer. Nothing but epoxy was used to hold it in place, It's lasted 6 years so far with no problems. On 31 Jan 2012 at 12:23, Michael Rogers [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote: > > > Has (metal) keel band been discussed on this forum? My impression is > that it can be a somewhat contentious issue. For one, Matt Newland of > SwallowBoats, who designed the Trouper 12 I'm building and supplied > the kit, doesn't like it. However, particularly on small boats like > mine, launched and recovered on various beach/slipway surfaces, it > does seem to make sense. I wish I had used it on my present boat, > /Cadenza./Unless I'm dissuaded by people who have more experience than > I have (and I am dissuadable!), I think I'll fit it from new on my new > boat. > > To overcome the objection of longer term water seepage into wood round > the screws (which is presumably more of an issue for boats on a > mooring, not my scene), I thought I would fit by screwing into wood, > then remove, drill the screw holes out larger, plug the larger holes > with epoxy, and refit with the original screws screwed into the epoxy > plugs. And bed the whole shabang in Sikaflex. Should make for a firm > fix? Does that make sense? > > With regard to width, does it make more sense to have the strip the > whole width of the stem/keel/skeg-at-stern - in which case one would > presumably not round off the (wood) edges: or to have the strip > slightly narrower, rounding the edges to suit? I think Classic Marine > supply widths with which I could do either. > > I had brass in mind, with bronze screws. > > Advice and comments would be very much appreciated. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the > discussion below: > http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Keel-band-tp3704529p3704529. > html > > To unsubscribe from UK HBBR Forum, visit > http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?mac > ro=unsubscribe_by_code&node=1558041&code=b3BlbmJvYXRAYXM2amcuZnJlZXVrL > mNvbXwxNTU4MDQxfC0yMDIwODM4MTA4 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4777 - Release Date: > 01/30/12 -- Hoping for calm nights Alastair Law, Yeovil, England. <http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com> |
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I'm no good at this - for the second time I've posted in the wrong slot. Obviously I'm not introducing myself, I had intended 'General Discussion'. Apologies all round, and if "Admin" want to help hide my embarrassment by moving this thread to its right place, I for one would be grateful.
Sorry, folks! M. |
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In reply to this post by Michael Rogers
I have every respect for Matt, but I'd be fitting some kind of metal keel band.
I'm not familiar with the construction of the Trooper, but you need something down the middle and a couple of bilge runners either side somewhere. I've used Classic Marine's stuff twice before and its been fine, and more competitive than the local Metal Supermarket. Even a band narrower than your keel will provide a good bit of protection. Remember to bend first then drill, not the other way round as it will kink. You could also use aluminium or stainless, depending on what finish you are looking for. I think your scheme for fixing will work admirably well. It may be slightly overkill, it really depends on the nature and frequency of your sailing. Maybe just bedding it all down in Sikaflex would be sufficient. Don't worry about posting in the wrong slot, we all do it, and admin doesn't even know what bus to get. ![]() Best regards Graham |
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Have you looked at Beta strip, Michael?
It's not too expensive, doesn't require any holes to be drilled (it glues on) and has a pretty good reputation with the dinghy crowd. See here for a retailer: http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Plastic_Keelband_Betastrip_Per_Metre_577200.html Jeremy |
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In reply to this post by Michael Rogers
I´ll use aluminium strips on my current build. (thats what I can get) Before I´ve made keel strip and runner out of a asian hardwood. Kind of teak replacement and it has worked well.
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Hi Anders,
My dinghy has parallel bilge runners made of Keruing (center board, no keel). This is a tropical hardwood, similar to teak, which is frequently used for the load-beds of flat wagons and open trucks, as it is hard-wearing and pretty well damp/weather proof. It is a mid-brown fairly featureless wood with flecks of beige, very light for it's hardness and strength. Maybe this is what you are referring to? I was lucky, a local farmer had a large number of off-cuts about 6 foot long, so I bought two for very little money. Ian |
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What I used is called Bankiri in Spain... You never know with these brown tropical hardwoods. I got it from a DIY supermarket. Its used to make outdoor floors and its very hard
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Thanks, guys. Just the sort of advice (esp Graham's) I was looking for.
Jeremy, with your prompt I've investigated Betastrip. It seems to come in one width only, 11mm. That's a bit too narrow, wouldn't really give the protection I need. I'm looking for 18mm/3/4 in. I'm not a diehard conservative (NB please note carefully the small c), and something a bit broader might have been OK. As it is, I'll stay with brass from Classic Marine and allow myself a smallish warm glow of 'traditional' virtue (please, someone/anyone, don't start a philosophical debate on what that might/should mean. That's for pints-in-a-pub, not an online forum). Michael |
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I've taken delivery of 3/4 inch brass keel band from Classic Marine. It's heavier, chunkier and rather less inclined to bend than I had imagined (100% imagination, never having handled it before). At risk of asking silly questions, could I have some practical tips on a number of things? -
- Bearing in mind Graham's advice about bend-before-drill to avoid kinking, can I drill and screw to 'anchor' on the straight, then use a curve such as the round of the forefoot to bend round and anchor (by screwing) again at a distance from the first screw to get an accurate curve, and then drill and screw at intervals on the curve to hold the band? The metal might then be under a bit of tension (wanting to spring straighter): but isn't this better than an imperfect unstressed curve sort of held in place by the screws? - How do I do really tight bends/curves, of a right angle or more over as short a radius as possible, eg round the top of the stem post? In a vice? Or is it better not to try to take it over the top (the protection might be handy if it can be done neatly), but just round it off at the top of the vertical? - Rounding off the end of a run of keel band (eg at the top of the stem post and at either end of the dagger board slot), how does one get a neat, un-scratched finish after using files to shape? - I asked Classic Marine and they suggested screws at 4 inch intervals. Is that right? - seems rather a lot to me (and has done their sale to me of bronze screws a power of good). I'm sure it's clear that I know nothing about metalwork, in fact it mildly scares me. And I realised, once I had done the sums for ordering, that brass band ain't all that cheap, so I don't want to mess up if I can help it. Advice on anything else I ought to know, but don't (yet) know to ask, would be very much appreciated. One thing already clear to me is it's going to look elegant (and be practical) if I can carry it off. Thanks again, in anticipation. Michael |
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How about a plywood jig? Transfer the keel profile to cardboard, offset the profile by one inch, cut 2 or 3 sections in thick ply and glue them together.
Then slowly bend the band around the jig using G-clamps at appropriate places. There are other, perhaps better, ways to make a jig of course. Alternatively drill a hole in the keel midships at the end of the band, to bolt the band securely inside the hull. Then moving forwards bend the band around the hull - a car jack could provide steady pressure with a slightly curved wooden block between jack and band. Later trim the band to clear the bolt hole, fill the bottom of the hole with epoxy and fit a wooden plug internally for a neat finish. -Paul |
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In reply to this post by Michael Rogers
Hi Michael,
This is what I do. Its not necessarily the right way, but its my way. If it sounds patronising it isn't meant to be, its just that you said metalwork is a mystery. Firstly if Moray McPhail at Classic Marine says screws at 4" centres then that's what to do, then if the thing falls off you can blame him. I suspect that the additional number of screws he is likely to sell won't make tuppence worth of difference to his profits. I think it was Moray who told me to drill before bending. Also, as Moray took a significant part in running the CCC at Beale last year we need to keep in with him. We may need to borrow his marquee if its wet again this year. The first time I fitted a keel band I had the boat the right way up as it was one of the last things I did. The next time I did it I painted the boat before turning her over, then fitted the keel band. I can recommend the latter but I appreciate that's probably not much help at this stage. Now decide where you want the screw holes to go on the boat. In other words you don't want to start drilling at the centreboard case and end up with an untidy unevenly spaced set of holes at the top of the stem. Measure and mark in pencil on the boat where you want them to be. About bending the brass strip. DO NOT HIT IT WITH A HAMMER. The hammer is likely to bounce back and hit you in the forehead, and when you finally come round the brass will be exactly the the same shape it was before you hit it, and probably still vibrating like a schoolboy's ruler. Bend it with firm steady pressure. I reckon your hands are the best thing as you can feel what's going on, possibly aided by a wooden block. Drilling can be a real fiddle. Once you have decided where the holes need to go, centre-punch the holes with a good sharp punch. Hit the punch sharply, once, with a good heavy hammer. Only once! hitting it a second time usually results in a second punch hole where you don't want it as the punch will bounce. As Paul suggests start drilling at the C/B case. and as you suggest, well, pretty much follow your own instructions in para 2. Use the boat as the template and gradually bend the strip round using firm even pressure close to the stem. Drill your holes, through the brass and into the wood, the correct size as pilot holes for the screws. You may need to ease the holes in the brass, with a slightly bigger drill to stop the screw necks binding. They will also need to be countersunk. So potentially three different drilling operations. I found these very helpfull combined-drill-and-countersinks I'm not sure there is any advantage in bending the brass over the stem head. Each to his own. A few of the ancient clinker rowing boats at our club have very fancy ends on the brass. They have been split into three and a Fleur-de-Lys motif created by curling the outer parts outwards, and flattening the centre part which is then drilled for a screw. Personally I think that's just showing off. If you do want to bend it over the stem-head put a piece of metal strip between the brass and the wood at the top of the stem and clamp it in place. This will avoid damaging the stem and help get a tight right angle. Then using another bar or piece of hardwood pressing against the brass push it over the top. To give some shape to the end of the brass you can either just square it off and chamfer the end, or round it off into a semi circle. A file will do this or my favourite tool the Angle Grinder can be utilised if you are very delicate. Emery cloth will polish up the brass and get rid of file marks etc. These Flap Discs are basically lazy boy's emery cloth and fit in your drill or Angle Grinder. I think that's it. Take your time and have fun! Cheers Graham |
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Thanks, Paul and Graham
First can I make clear that I'm not, Winnie-the-Pooh-wise, casting any nasturtiums at Classic Marine, whom I hold in the highest regard, and who do indeed know what they're on about. They did a bespoke bronze sheet horse to go across the after deck of my double ender. I gave them all sorts of angles and measurements in at least 3 1/2 dimensions, and the finished article fitted millimetre-perfect and will last forever. I'm not now too nervous to have a go with the keel band, but I am still a bit concerned about achieving the only two really sharp bends involved - just over a right angle over the top of the stem (yes, I do want to do that) and just less than 90 degrees round the heel of the skeg under the stern. I think I've tracked down a local fancy-ironwork blacksmith who will (I hope) do those sharp bends for me. Advice on drilling etc duly noted and will be followed. At the moment, however, the boat is right way up for gunwale fitting and final attention to seat slats. Nearly there! I have hitherto kept my angle grinder habits to myself. A scary and potentially disastrous tool (and the one I can afford is SO noisy- is that the primitive gearing involved?), but with a really light touch it's amazing what it will do! But I'm clearly preaching to the real experts. I should really share a picture of my build. This is, unfortunately, an area smothered with a massive amount of inferiority so far as your truly is concerned. I can scarcely manage a digital camera (I was quite a photographic wizz in the old colour film days), and the way all you guys reel off these amazing photos illustrating what you're doing tends to leave me feeling rather less than useless. However, you never know, in a moment of madness and a flash of IT lucidity something might happen. Just, please do NOT hold your breath! Thanks again for the support and advice. Michael |
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