Marine ply

[Peter Nobes]

Hello all

I'm pondering my next project or two.  Any suggestions for marine ply that will look lovely when bright finished?  I'm looking for something less honey-coloured than Robbins standard, but lighter-coloured, and less expensive, than their Super Elite.

Thanks
Peter

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Peter,
I'm just back from Cobnor, had a great time as usual, but we were short of a blues harp player.

We've talked a lot on here about Marine Ply and how it isn't always all its cracked up to be.

Have you thought about Birch Ply? Very white and very nice to work with. But of course not Marine Grade. I don't think that would be a problem when its all covered in epoxy.
More to the point what are you thinking of building?

Cheers Graham.

[Nesting Ray.]

Hi.Peter and Graham.
 Just like to stick my oar in so to speak, on the subject of birch ply. I have thought also of going down that route, good quality marine ply is like the proverbial rockinghorse waste, but birch is readily available and cheap enough. I have used plenty in the past and is a dream to cut and sand finish. The glue is WBP as is marine. 6mm is 5 ply with nice one piece veneers and no knots. As you say Graham, with a couple of good coats of epoxy no harm should come. Especially as most small boats are only in the water for a few hours per week, then taken out to dry. Larger boats kept in moorings all season would  l think warrant the extra cost of decent quality ply. Ray.

[Paul H (admin)]

Ray,

You will find the epoxy/paint layer gives the critical protection. Some of us swear by two pack paint because it sets rock solid and lasts for years with zero maintenance - plus they use it on oil rigs and ocean liners QED.

I've used cheap and cheerful exterior + glass fibre sheathing + 2-pack. Excellent condition 8 years after building.

Also carefully covering the boat when not in use to protect it against sun/UV/rain can add years to its life.

-Paul

[Port-Na-Storm]

Some of us who are DCA members attended the AGM at Warsash yesterday.

The guest speaker was Francois Vivier, who gave a very interesting talk on his designs.
He said a couple of interesting things about ply;
African Gov'ts are now insisting that Marine ply made from Occume is produced in the country of origin, and that, sadly means that the quality isn't always what is should be.
He and others in France are doing tests on the suitability of Birch Ply which he believes is just as durable as Occume. He has also built his own boat using Birch, he does warn that it can be up to 30% heavier, some might say that's a good thing. Watch this space as they say.

During lunch he also mentioned he was very interested in the success Adrian Morgan is having using Collano instead of epoxy on the Caledonian Yawl he's currently building.
Adrian reckons its great as there is no mixing and no waste, and it does seem to have some gap filling ability.

http://thetroublewitholdboats.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/we-can-eat.html

It was interesting that four people present had completed or were in the process of building Francois'  Morbic 12 design a  pretty little 12ft lugger.

[BrianP]

Worth noting that Alec Jordan is now supplying kits for Vivier designs, including the Morbic 12. He charges £871 which is a much lower entry point than the Icarai kit which starts at 4715 Euros, not sure just what extra that supplies could well be machined hardwoods??

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/Vivier.htm

http://www.icarai.fr/kits/fr/morbic12.html

Ed enjoyed using the birch ply for patterns etc, very high quality and bends nicely. We weighed a sheet compared to mahogany it came out very close. However the sheets and pieces left in the garage have become covered in mould and he will have to throw out every piece to stop this being a source of rot in his garage. Coating seems to be essential very early on.

Brian

[AdrianG]

Hello P-n-S and other friends

This Adrian is also a fan of the polyurethane adhesives Balcotan (RIP) and the slightly less brilliant (because it's white, not light brown) Collano Semparoc. Both Lekker Ding and Bram were built with the stuff (clinker canoes) and I found it so much more pleasant and easy to work with than epoxy. I did fillet with epoxy where necessary, but that's a fairly pleasant task in comparison to wielding girt sloppy, slippery and increasingly sticky planks. Yeuch.

You do have to pay attention to good joints, though. The slight foaming of the PU adhesives does fill gaps (the faster the cure time, the more they foam, it seems) but the foam has very little strength.

Sorry, I couldn't help that evangelical outburst in praise of polyurethane adhesives. Mmmm.

I shall now return to my forum-lurking position.

Kind regards
Adrian

[Peter Nobes]

Apologies for the 8-month delay in responding to this - I've had an Annus Horribilis.

My first canoe, Serafina, was built with exterior ply from Travis Perkins which was a lovely colour and had a beautiful grain.  I'll see if I can work out how to post a photo.

I was hoping to find something that would look as good but wouldn't have so many voids in it.  However I gave in and bought from Robbins.  I have started a new build but I'm going to post separately about that because I wouldn't want to incur the wrath of the Topic Police....

Best

Peter

On 31 March 2014 17:50, AdrianG [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello P-n-S and other friends

This Adrian is also a fan of the polyurethane adhesives Balcotan (RIP) and the slightly less brilliant (because it's white, not light brown) Collano Semparoc. Both Lekker Ding and Bram were built with the stuff (clinker canoes) and I found it so much more pleasant and easy to work with than epoxy. I did fillet with epoxy where necessary, but that's a fairly pleasant task in comparison to wielding girt sloppy, slippery and increasingly sticky planks. Yeuch.

You do have to pay attention to good joints, though. The slight foaming of the PU adhesives does fill gaps (the faster the cure time, the more they foam, it seems) but the foam has very little strength.

Sorry, I couldn't help that evangelical outburst in praise of polyurethane adhesives. Mmmm.

I shall now return to my forum-lurking position.

Kind regards
Adrian

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Peter Nobes
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www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[Peter Nobes]

Adrian - you built both your clinker boats without epoxy?  I've bought a batch of epoxy from Fyne Boat Kits or I might have tried doing mine with polyurethane.  But I was wondering whether to use polyurethane for scarph-jointing the sheerstrake anyway as it's going to be bright finished and I think it'll be easier to clean up than epoxy.  I was going to use epoxy for scarph joints on all the other strakes as they are going to be painted.  Any thoughts?

Best

Peter

On 31 March 2014 17:50, AdrianG [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello P-n-S and other friends

This Adrian is also a fan of the polyurethane adhesives Balcotan (RIP) and the slightly less brilliant (because it's white, not light brown) Collano Semparoc. Both Lekker Ding and Bram were built with the stuff (clinker canoes) and I found it so much more pleasant and easy to work with than epoxy. I did fillet with epoxy where necessary, but that's a fairly pleasant task in comparison to wielding girt sloppy, slippery and increasingly sticky planks. Yeuch.

You do have to pay attention to good joints, though. The slight foaming of the PU adhesives does fill gaps (the faster the cure time, the more they foam, it seems) but the foam has very little strength.

Sorry, I couldn't help that evangelical outburst in praise of polyurethane adhesives. Mmmm.

I shall now return to my forum-lurking position.

Kind regards
Adrian

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--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[AdrianG]

Hi Peter

Good luck with the skiff - that's a fine looking model.

I used PU adhesive for all plank joints, both the clinker ones and the scarph joints. This did mean I needed to be very careful with the land joints - PU requires close fitting joints and a lot of clamps to keep pressure on (Oughtred's ply planks & wedges are ideal). Ditto for the scarph joints - for which the glue is ideal since these joints can be very close fitting and heavily clamped (neither of these circumstances being ideal for epoxy, but great for PU). However, there is a downside in that PU can stain the wood - not ideal for a bright finished plank but with care (read accuracy in jointing and no excess glue) the result is just fine. The application of paint for most planks does reduce the stress, though!

Importantly, I must be clear of my belt and braces technique, which was to clean up all excess PU from the clinker planks when dry (easily done with a sharp chisel and a cabinet scraper), then apply epoxy fillets (from a plastic bag with a hole in the corner) to all joints, inside & out. Not only did this tidy up all edges, but must have added a lot of strength, compensated for any lapses in my woodwork (of which there were many) and generally guaranteed watertightness.

All in all, I found using both glues where best applicable to be a really good compromise. I would hate to have to build an entire planked boat with just epoxy. Equally, I'm not sure I have the skills to ensure such perfect jointing that PU alone would be sufficient.

Does that make sense and help?

PS If you use the rapid PU, you can have a plank scarphed and ready for use in a couple of hours! But for the brightwork plank, use the slow stuff - it foams less, so less chance of glue spreading and staining.

kind regards
Adrian

[Peter Nobes]

Hi Adrian

That's very helpful.  I have cut my first ever scarph and glued it with epoxy.  Despite planing neatly the joint is a little uneven and will need some fairing on the boat.  I was surprised how little the epoxy stained the wood though - probably less than the PU does, judging by what you said.  However It's still not going to be good enough for the sheer strake.  Has anyone got suggestions for how to do a scarph joint without any staining to the wood?  It must be possible because Chris Perkins managed it on his exquisite boats.  Maybe I'll give him a call.

Best

Peter

On 17 April 2014 19:18, AdrianG [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter

Good luck with the skiff - that's a fine looking model.

I used PU adhesive for all plank joints, both the clinker ones and the scarph joints. This did mean I needed to be very careful with the land joints - PU requires close fitting joints and a lot of clamps to keep pressure on (Oughtred's ply planks & wedges are ideal). Ditto for the scarph joints - for which the glue is ideal since these joints can be very close fitting and heavily clamped (neither of these circumstances being ideal for epoxy, but great for PU). However, there is a downside in that PU can stain the wood - not ideal for a bright finished plank but with care (read accuracy in jointing and no excess glue) the result is just fine. The application of paint for most planks does reduce the stress, though!

Importantly, I must be clear of my belt and braces technique, which was to clean up all excess PU from the clinker planks when dry (easily done with a sharp chisel and a cabinet scraper), then apply epoxy fillets (from a plastic bag with a hole in the corner) to all joints, inside & out. Not only did this tidy up all edges, but must have added a lot of strength, compensated for any lapses in my woodwork (of which there were many) and generally guaranteed watertightness.

All in all, I found using both glues where best applicable to be a really good compromise. I would hate to have to build an entire planked boat with just epoxy. Equally, I'm not sure I have the skills to ensure such perfect jointing that PU alone would be sufficient.

Does that make sense and help?

PS If you use the rapid PU, you can have a plank scarphed and ready for use in a couple of hours! But for the brightwork plank, use the slow stuff - it foams less, so less chance of glue spreading and staining.

kind regards
Adrian

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--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Peter,
I think Chris uses a lot of parcel tape or similar to mask the areas around joints, and of course is meticulous in keeping things clean.
Unlike the slap-it-on-and-scrape-it-off-later method I use.

The hot air gun is much in use when I'm cleaning up.

Cheers Graham

[Timmo]

Chris Perkins used various methods but has definitely been a fan of using a router and a jig. I've gone a similar route with a circular saw adaptor for the purpose. Still don't get results like Chris's though.

The trick that's easy with both these routes but also possible by hand is not to have the joint completely feathered but instead to cut the slope for the scarph and end it with a step at the top of the slope and a square edge at the bottom. Not sure how clear that is without a picture but I haven't the wit to create one. Means there's a clean butt joint just over a veneer thick on each side of the join which avoids the broad epoxy line you can otherwise get.

Fiddly to do by hand but worth it for the sheer strake if you're finishing it bright.

Tim.

On 30 Apr 2014, at 11:41, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter,
I think Chris uses a lot of parcel tape or similar to mask the areas around joints, and of course is meticulous in keeping things clean.
Unlike the slap-it-on-and-scrape-it-off-later method I use.

The hot air gun is much in use when I'm cleaning up.

Cheers Graham

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[Paul H (admin)]

I tend to follow Graham, but use a flexible scraper to clean up the edges as I work along a seam.

Taping gives a neater finish, but in the mad panic to get the job done I always forget taping!

Paul

[Paul H (admin)]

BTW I learned my technique from my dear departed Dad, who was a dab hand with Polyfilla.

 "Always scrape off as much as you can...it saves sanding later" circa 1967.

Paul

[AdrianG]

Hi Peter

Well done on the first scarph. If the epoxy is clear stuff, then I may have good news. The epoxy 'staining' disappears when you varnish it. Try it on a test piece. I hope you'll be very pleasantly surprised. (That's minus one point for PU - but I still like it. )

Kind regards
Adrian

[Peter Nobes]

Thanks everyone.  Tim - your method requires a router, right?  It would be difficult to do with a plane.  I'll have a go with the PU if I need the joint to dry quickly but I invested in a big pot of epoxy so I'll carry on with that.  And I'll have a go with taping and see how that goes.  I'll report back.

Best

Peter

On 30 April 2014 21:41, AdrianG [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter

Well done on the first scarph. If the epoxy is clear stuff, then I may have good news. The epoxy 'staining' disappears when you varnish it. Try it on a test piece. I hope you'll be very pleasantly surprised. (That's minus one point for PU - but I still like it. )

Kind regards
Adrian

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--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[Timmo]

Hi Peter

Definitely easier with a router once you have a jig set up. Can be done without, I've used a fine pullsaw to create the butte edge bit (just jut down through first veneer or two) then a block plane for the main slope and a chisel or shoulder plane (where blade goes all way to edge of sole of plane) for the topof the slope on each plank. Fiddly though and takes time. Other suggestions here make a lot of sense.

Tim.

On 1 May 2014, at 20:28, Peter Nobes [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks everyone.  Tim - your method requires a router, right?  It would be difficult to do with a plane.  I'll have a go with the PU if I need the joint to dry quickly but I invested in a big pot of epoxy so I'll carry on with that.  And I'll have a go with taping and see how that goes.  I'll report back.
>
> Best
> Peter

[Peter Nobes]

I might give that a go.  Any excuse to buy new tools - I'd never heard of a shoulder plane.

On 2 May 2014 05:05, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter

Definitely easier with a router once you have a jig set up. Can be done without, I've used a fine pullsaw to create the butte edge bit (just jut down through first veneer or two) then a block plane for the main slope and a chisel or shoulder plane (where blade goes all way to edge of sole of plane) for the topof the slope on each plank. Fiddly though and takes time. Other suggestions here make a lot of sense.

Tim.

On 1 May 2014, at 20:28, Peter Nobes [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks everyone.  Tim - your method requires a router, right?  It would be difficult to do with a plane.  I'll have a go with the PU if I need the joint to dry quickly but I invested in a big pot of epoxy so I'll carry on with that.  And I'll have a go with taping and see how that goes.  I'll report back.
>
> Best
> Peter

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--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[Timmo]

Always good to get a new tool or two. Shoulder or Rebate planes are very useful for all sorts of situations (often used for easing a tenon or tidying a rebate.) They don't do anything a skilled carpenter can't do with a sharp chisel but since I am limited on skill I appreciate their help.

One I use most (because I can't afford a Lie Nielson one) is this one: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-no-19-92-shoulder-plane

None of them are as big as they look in the picture in the catalogue, that one is compact but still large enough to fit the hand comfortably. Can always take the top/front off if you need to plane up to an edge.

Tim.

On 2 May 2014, at 13:22, Peter Nobes [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I might give that a go.  Any excuse to buy new tools - I'd never heard of a shoulder plane.

On 2 May 2014 05:05, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] <<a href="x-msg://13/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=4027539&amp;i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter

Definitely easier with a router once you have a jig set up. Can be done without, I've used a fine pullsaw to create the butte edge bit (just jut down through first veneer or two) then a block plane for the main slope and a chisel or shoulder plane (where blade goes all way to edge of sole of plane) for the topof the slope on each plank. Fiddly though and takes time. Other suggestions here make a lot of sense.

Tim.

On 1 May 2014, at 20:28, Peter Nobes [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks everyone.  Tim - your method requires a router, right?  It would be difficult to do with a plane.  I'll have a go with the PU if I need the joint to dry quickly but I invested in a big pot of epoxy so I'll carry on with that.  And I'll have a go with taping and see how that goes.  I'll report back.
>
> Best
> Peter

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--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

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