New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

[Michael Rogers]

Phew, Anders! Where to start? Herewith some suggestions, for you to take up if you want to. I'd be interested in Simon's comments - I suspect he knows quite a bit about this, and Slieve McGalliard, whom Simon mentioned, is one of the leaders in modern junk rig practice. Incidentally, one of the many excellent features of PJR (Hasler and McCleod's book) is the comprehensive and detailed index. Think of a question and you can often find an answer there. The trouble is, much of the 'technology' they deal in (masts, spars etc) is out-of-date, and all of it relates to keel boats (except, someone will point out, for 'Hum' in the Appendix: readers of the book will know what I'm on about).

- Do you want to stay with ketch rig? Someone else to comment here, please, because I have no experience of a mizzen. I know many sailors (eg of Swallow Boats Bayraiders) enthuse about the advantages. I believe a sprit-boom mizzen can combine well with a junk main. Otherwise you could put all your sail area on the one (main) mast.

- About sail area, I think I've mentioned the '+10%' rule of thumb, but whether this would be appropriate for a canoe I've no idea.

- Presumably part of the thinking behind the suggested sail plan is to keep the various 'centres' (gravity, lateral resistance etc) low. I think a junk sail, and therefore its mast, would need to be a bit taller (higher aspect ratio). The mast is, of course, unstayed. The yard needs to be slung (from the halyard) at around its mid-point, which usually means a higher peak than a similar sized lugsail. A CF mast is amazingly light: also expensive unless you can find a used wind-surfing mast of the right size (Windsurfers seem often to upgrade in the search for better performance. Robin Blain [see below] has, or had, some windsurfer masts to give away if they suit.) I use laminated timber for the yard and boom and 3/4 in (19 mm) aluminium tube for the battens. Together with the very light sail cloth needed, the resulting sail bundle weighs surprisingly little.

- You could go for a traditional 'flat' sail - not so good to windward as cambered panels, otherwise all the advantages of junk rig. Cambered panel sails tend to be more complicated and therefore more expensive, at least they are if professionally made. However Arne Kverneland in Norway (another of junk rig's innovators) has a different way of cambering his sails, and makes his own from 'normal' material. I think he's written this up in the so-called public pages on the JRA website, showing how to do it on a domestic sewing machine.

- Mast step, partners, bury. I guess that whatever was designed for the lug sail would be fine.

- Overlap (H&McC call it 'balance'). I'd go for 10 - 15%. For what it's worth, Cadenza's rig has about 8%, the new boat will have 12%: both approved by Chris Scanes (see below). Many modern junk rigs have more at the yard than the boom (like a standing lug). Chris Scanes says that for cambered panel sails it's a good idea to have the balance even up and down the luff (like a dipping lug): he told me why, but I'm blowed if I can remember.

- For around 60 sq ft, I suggest 4 battens, = 5 panels. The top batten can be left unsheeted: this leaves 3 battens + the boom to be sheeted (let's talk about the details of sheeting if and when, and another time!). The bottom two battens should be parallel with the boom so that the bottom two panels (those most often reefed) are rectangular. The remaining 3 panels form a fan up to the yard. It's a good idea to have the areas of the panels about the same as each other. I tried out various ideas on sheets of graph paper to get an idea of how they would look.

- If you decide to go further with this, Robin Blain (tel no on the Sunbird Marine website) and Chris Scanes (ditto on the 'Sails and Canvas' website) I know would be pleased to help. One of them might know of any sailing canoe connections. I believe Arne Kverneland is also approachable, his email address will be somewhere on the JRA website.

I hope at least some of that helps. Simon, any comments?

[simplesimon]

I don't believe one should slavishly copy big boat practice into small boats without first understanding the why of the practice.

I think first one needs to remember that western junk rig (JR) was developed by "Blondie" Hasler, who was, by all conventional standards of his day, a bit off the beaten track. If nothing else, he raced offshore (successfully!) in a 25sqm class yacht, Tre-Sang, which was about 33ft long, had a tiny cabin, and freeboard about the same as a canoe. I am firmly of the opinion that, as a result, he came to the conclusion that foredeck work offshore was something to be avoided, especially by lone sailors. So he put a fair amount of effort into developing rigs that could be managed by one man from the cockpit, or even from the cabin.

As a result much JR practice follows from this aim.

The complicated sheeting is a case in point. Whilst Hasler didn't invent it, as I explained above it avoids the need to go on deck to tie in leech reefing lines. There are other consequences too. If the rig was going to be reefable just by dropping the halyard, then it needed to be heavy enough to come down under gravity - not difficult in a big boat, difficult in a small one. If you weren't going to use a luff downhaul on each batten, then it needed to set without a very taut luff. To get the peak to set properly, the halyard needed to be attached halfway along the yard; then to get the whole sail to set properly, you needed luff parrels to stop the sail swinging forward; etc etc.

The result is a rig that works well when short-handed, reefs easily, but which does have lots of bits of string. Whether we need all of that in a small boat is open to debate. I would maintain that one probably does not.

European lug rigs set very well attached to a traveller that slides up the mast, and to a line (or something) to hold down the tack. The weight of the yard tensions the luff, and prevents it blowing off to lee (although the big luggers used to set bowlines as well). There's no reason why a fully-battenned lug should not adopt the same practice. When reefing however, it does require that the tack downhaul be moved to the reef cringle (or that another downhaul be permantly rigged on the reef cringle). On big boats that would require going on deck; on small boats it needs merely the ability to reach the tack and reef cringles.

If we can get to the leech cringles as well (both clew and reef) then we can do without the complicated sheeting as long as we have some way of controlling twist in the reefed sail (e.g a reefing line).

So in small boats we can dispense with a lot of the big-boat bits of string.

The "10% increase in sail area" came from similar big-boat reasoning.
- Firstly, flat junk rigs are so inefficient that they need an extra 10% sail to get the same performance as other rigs.
- Secondly, it's very difficult to set extra light-wind canvas (gennikers etc) on an unstayed mast without loading it in ways it was probably not designed to take, so extra sail area is useful in light weather.
- Thirdly, if you have an easily-reefed rig, then it's acceptable to tuck in a reef when the wind gets up to Force 2, whereas most people would reckon on using full mainsail up to F4.

The amount of sail a boat can carry is determined by its ability to stay upright (if it's not determined by rule, e.g the OCSG rule imposes a maximum of 44sqft). John Welsford will have designed the rig with this in mind, so that it is reasonably easy to keep the boat upright in moderate sailing breezes. Yes, you can add extra sail area, but there's no point if it spends most of its time tucked away in a reef. If you do add area however, you do need to avoid moving the sail centres of area much in a horizontal plane, otherwise you will upset the rig-hull balance. If you want to go to a single sail, I would go back to John and ask for advice. He will know how much lead to allow for his hull shape (and it's not necessarily the same for a single sail as for a ketch).

The rest we can come to - I've got to go and make Sheila's lunch now!
Cheers
Simon

[Chris Waite]

Thanks for that Simon

It seems a very 'balanced' view to me and explains some stuff that I certainly didn't know

CW

[Anders]

Thanks Simon and Michael.

Its a very interesting subject. At the moment, I wont be using a Junk rig on the 11´sail and oar dink I´m building. I´ve decided to go with a balanced lug. Mostly because it uses few lines and it stows away easily when rowing.
But if I one day build something bigger, then I would investigate junk rigs some more. I didn´t know about the European junk rig and sounds interesting.
Has anyone made a Paradox microcruiser with a junk rig?

[Michael Rogers]

My original suggestion on this thread about junk rig was a bit OTT: I should have suggested that JR should be 'considered' for a sailing canoe and, somewhat to my surprise, it sort of has been. I don't know enough about canoe sailing to justify more than making that basic suggestion.

I beg your collective indulgence if I come across as super-enthusiastic about JR. There is a reason for this. Those of you who are DCA members may have read my account of the re-rigging of my 14 ft boat, which was an attempt, in the event very successful (hence the enthusiasm), to overcome a serious problem - to whit the total impracticability of reefing 'Cadenza' on the water except in a flat calm, and what would be the usefulness of that! I consider it absolutely basic, to seamanship and safety, that a boat can be safely, and preferably quickly, reefed while out sailing, and that means, obviously, with a freshening wind and probably increasing chop. I couldn't begin to do that in my boat, and didn't know what to do about it....... until a serendipitous encounter with Hasler and McCleod's book set in train a whole lot of things, culminating in the neat and highly effective junk rig that I now sail with and (over)enthuse about when I get the chance. Not only was my reefing problem solved, but every aspect of performance bar one of her sailing performance has improved. Not bad considering that the Swallowboats spritboom gunter rig, which I replaced, has a lot going for it. The exception? No, not going to windward, Chris - that was appreciably better as well. It was sailing in very light winds, which is frankly a let-down compared with everything else.

I'm quite puzzled by some of Simon's comments, which I can't let him get away with (if that doesn't sound too combative). So bear with me while I have another go. First up, I agree entirely that one should not be slavish in applying big boat practice to small boats. What has thrilled me, however, is how applicable virtually all the basic features of JR are to small boat sailing needs and practice.

Western JR was developed by Hasler and others from 'Chinese' JR, which evolved through centuries of use and constant development in the Far East - probably a much longer pedigree than any of our current sailing rigs in the West, on boats big and small. Knowledgeable Westerners observed and commented on the handiness (including to windward, Chris) of junks of all sizes in crowded seaways and on the open oceans. I don't know why or where Hasler first tried JR (was he influenced by Joshua Slocombe's enthusiastic endorsement of it in the 1880s?), but it clearly suited his style of sailing. He also, as Simon has said, decided (with McCleod and others) that it lent itself to all control lines being led to the steering position, emphasising the safety advantages of this arrangement. However, this is NOT a feature of Chinese JR, nor is it an essential feature of Western JR, nor is it peculiar to JR in current Western recreational sailing practice. JR is no different to any other rig in this respect, and it is almost a coincidence that Hasler should have combined the two - JR and all-sail-handling-from-the-cockpit - very practical though the combination is.

Therefore, Simon, the ONLY JR practice which follows from this practice of leading running lines aft is the practice of leading all running lines aft! Any small boat sailor can do this if he wants to, although it works especially well with JR. ALL other aspects of JR practice have their origins elsewhere, and almost all JR practice does NOT follow from this aim.

Your reasoning leads you to misunderstand the purpose of JR sheeting, which again was evolved centuries ago. Its main function is to control the entire leech as well as the boom, to make the sail more efficient. It does, as a bonus, also obviate the need for leech lines when reefing, but this is secondary.

One of your assertions, Simon, I can categorically refute from my own experience. You do NOT need a heavy rig for it to be reefable the JR way. Because my little boat is so tippy, I made the whole sail bundle as light as was feasible. There has been no problem at all with reefing: the sail comes down perfectly easily when required to, and behaves beautifully, as one would expect

The 'lots of string' jibe is common but misplaced. There is more than some rigs, but it is well-behaved string and functions well. Some of it is 'semi-standing' rigging in that, once properly set up it requires no adjustment or hauling in use: examples are batten parrels and the boom lift. People don't bang on about lacing, for example, in other rigs: it's not standing rigging, but once set up it stays put and does its bit. JR usually has five basic hauling lines  - halyard, sheet, yard parrel, luff parrel and lazyjack: not excessive. I read the forum on the Swallowboats website, and amuse myself following the discussion among sailors of the bigger and newer Swallowboat designs, most of which have spritboom gunter rig. Suggestions fly around about adding an outhaul here, a downhaul there, a tack line, a this, a that: they nearly all add lazyjacks/topping lifts. They end up with more string than JR, and most of this jiggery-pokery is to assist in the vexed matter of reefing. Most of them are seasoned sailors. I rest my case.

The 'plus 10% sail area' idea only comes from bigger boat experience because that is where Western JR has largely been tried to date. It certainly seems to work well with small JR boats as well. Cadenza has about 12% more canvas than with her previous rig, and carries it better. This has nothing to do with early reefing. Even a well-designed flat panel junk sail (with flexible battens and boom) does not need the extra sail area to overcome its alleged relative inefficiency. Such a sail can be as efficient as any other comparable rig, with the exception of bermudan rig, close-hauled; and more efficient than any of them off the wind (except if our brethren of bermudan persuasion spend the energy, hassle and extra string (sic) hoisting spinnakers etc and keeping them filled with wind). The apparent ability to carry extra sail comfortably seems to have to do with an easy-ness and seakindliness associated with JR which is difficult to define and analyse, but is probably a consequence of the way the various stresses produced by sail propulsion are spread throughout the rig, mast and hull.

There are some indifferent, even lousy, junk rigs around: Chris can evidently confirm that. There are also some effective and easy-to-handle ones, now involving small boats as well as bigger yachts: that is my personal experience. The 12 ft dinghy now in build in our outhouse will be junk rigged, and I have high hopes for her, with good reason based on my personal experience.

Back to sailing canoes, with apologies if this diversion has been irritating for some. I suspect that the best opinion on all of this related to rigs for canoes is the designer, and Simon is right - ask John.

I must get to bed.           Cheers.                     Michael

[Anders]

Thanks for keeping the thread going. I personally find it very interesting and if/when I one day build another boat where I wont be taking down the whole rig in order to row, I will strongly consider a junk rig. I´ve sailed hundreds of Nm singlehanded in Bermuda rigged boats and I know how important it is not having to go on deck in order to reef.

Michael, since I dont know your posts on the DCA, do you have some photos of your rig or maybe just a link to a page...

[momist]

Michael,

I've read, and re-read, your post with great interest.  I have been for a while now considering a change to the standing lug rig of my 8' dinghy, Robin.  

She is a Y-Emma design by the late John Westell, as published in yachting Monthly back in 1982.  The lug is 41 square feet on a mast 2.76 metres tall and a yard 2.3m long.  (Mixed measures!)  The sail is loose footed but stretched along a boom of just over 2 metres.  Non of the spars fit inside the boat, and although the sailing performance is everything I could wish for in such a small dinghy built of 2.5 sheets of ply, I too can't reef safely in increasing wind.  Reefing usually means tying it down before going out, and if the weather is good enough then letting it out when I can relax away from dangers.  To reef on the water, I get the whole rig down into the boat and struggle around all that wood and sail to tie it down, then attempt to re-hoist as best I can, often with some swimming involved.

The other disadvantage is when sailing on the rivers of the broads.  The lug is not enough for very light airs, and often does not stick up high enough to catch the wind above reed top level.

I was considering a sprit rig for light airs, on the existing or a taller mast, but with no boom, to try and get a larger sail higher.  This of course would not do on exposed waters and would make reefing even more difficult, but might make rowing on the river with the sail ready to deploy a lot easier.  

Your thread about the sailing canoe and junk rig has introduced another possibility.  Do you know of anyone who has tried it on a boat as small as mine?  Where should I look for a very simple junk rig design, to a small scale?

Ian

[Chris Waite]

Alright Michael

As you seem to have singled me out, I presume to be bold enough to take it you have forgiven me for my previous unintended cheek.  I agree with you and anyone else who feels that being able to reef while afloat is an essential requisite; I can also see that JR is probably easiest in this respect.

After this I have a problem; I favour the balance lug for a small cruising boat.  This is a JR without the battens, thus it is lighter, less lumpy, more easily cambered and has less string.

To explain to anyone not already aware, a sail should twist as the top is in air that is faster the further away from the water surface.  This equates to any propellor, where the tip of the blade moves much faster than the base near the hub and is accordingly flatter on to the direction of fluid flow.

Both sails are basically quadrilateral and spread by the boom and spar between tack to clew (boom) and throat to peak (spar).  The mast, (preferably unstayed) is passed by both spars, so the sails are held flat – spread like a town crier holding up a scroll – how flat, or twisted, can as much as you reasonably wish, be controlled by the tension in the haliyard, rendering both conventional kicking straps and multiple purchase JR sheets unnecessary.

1.  1 x haliyard (in blue):































2.  1 x sheet:































3.  1 x boom strop, (the black toggle is on the end of the lazyjack ready to be hauled taught):































Three bits of string and that’s it; however both rigs, BOTH rigs, benefit from a double topping lift and lazyjack system so that the boom and sail do not drop into, or over the side of, the boat when lowered.  At its simplest this can be one line looping down from the masthead through an eye under the boom some way aft to catch both spars and sail and back up to the masthead; thence down outside the sail, to a control point below the boom confining the sail/spar bundle against the mast.

Being unable to handle your rig once afloat, is to my mind, not a design plus in any boat.  Many of us fail to reef because it is a fight and as above I agree that the JR is simplicity itself.  My choice is a few deep slab reefs – one, or perhaps two if you must; if you cannot reach the ends of the boom, then fit appropriate pennants, or better a single line system, either way led along the boom to where they can be hauled down in safety.  Loose sail can be gathered by ties which are a pain; bungee woven back and forth through the reefing eyes with hooks is quick and simple.  Or on larger boats a permanently mounted top opening sail cover.  I have this on my pocket gaffer; best piece of kit on the boat and I do wonder whether it could be simply imitated on smaller rigs with a little netting.

Never mind the ugly mug slouched in the bilges; Graham's picture shows the little lugger with her one reef tucked in and the topping lift (thin white line) passing under the boom aft and again by the mast:

























Now aircraft wings have given up having struts and string all over them and they do anything up to several hundred miles an hour.  In general the less added ‘stuff’ you have up in the rig, the lighter, smoother and more turbulence free it will be and I simply do not believe the JR is more streamlined, or better cambered than a simple single spread of sail of equivalent outline and area.

Reefing yes; efficiency no.

I am tempted to point out aspects of the red sail on the canoe pictured further back up this subject to say nothing of all those complicated ways of doing simple things.  I am tempted

But I’m sure I’ve already upset enough people for one winter

Chris W

[Ratcatcherjohn]

Good evening Chris        Nice to see you sat inside your craft.  I recall a different scenario.  R/J
 

---

Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 12:40:53 -0800
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

Alright Michael

As you seem to have singled me out, I presume to be bold enough to take it you have forgiven me for my previous unintended cheek.  I agree with you and anyone else who feels that being able to reef while afloat is an essential requisite; I can also see that JR is probably easiest in this respect.

After this I have a problem; I favour the balance lug for a small cruising boat.  This is a JR without the battens, thus it is lighter, less lumpy, more easily cambered and has less string.

To explain to anyone not already aware, a sail should twist as the top is in air that is faster the further away from the water surface.  This equates to any propellor, where the tip of the blade moves much faster than the base near the hub and is accordingly flatter on to the direction of fluid flow.

Both sails are basically quadrilateral and spread by the boom and spar between tack to clew (boom) and throat to peak (spar).  The mast, (preferably unstayed) is passed by both spars, so the sails are held flat – spread like a town crier holding up a scroll – how flat, or twisted, can as much as you reasonably wish, be controlled by the tension in the haliyard, rendering both conventional kicking straps and multiple purchase JR sheets unnecessary.

1.  1 x haliyard (in blue):































2.  1 x sheet:































3.  1 x boom strop, (the black toggle is on the end of the lazyjack ready to be hauled taught):































Three bits of string and that’s it; however both rigs, BOTH rigs, benefit from a double topping lift and lazyjack system so that the boom and sail do not drop into, or over the side of, the boat when lowered.  At its simplest this can be one line looping down from the masthead through an eye under the boom some way aft to catch both spars and sail and back up to the masthead; thence down outside the sail, to a control point below the boom confining the sail/spar bundle against the mast.

Being unable to handle your rig once afloat, is to my mind, not a design plus in any boat.  Many of us fail to reef because it is a fight and as above I agree that the JR is simplicity itself.  My choice is a few deep slab reefs – one, or perhaps two if you must; if you cannot reach the ends of the boom, then fit appropriate pennants, or better a single line system, either way led along the boom to where they can be hauled down in safety.  Loose sail can be gathered by ties which are a pain; bungee woven back and forth through the reefing eyes with hooks is quick and simple.  Or on larger boats a permanently mounted top opening sail cover.  I have this on my pocket gaffer; best piece of kit on the boat and I do wonder whether it could be simply imitated on smaller rigs with a little netting.

Never mind the ugly mug slouched in the bilges; Graham's picture shows the little lugger with her one reef tucked in and the topping lift (thin white line) passing under the boom aft and again by the mast:

























Now aircraft wings have given up having struts and string all over them and they do anything up to several hundred miles an hour.  In general the less added ‘stuff’ you have up in the rig, the lighter, smoother and more turbulence free it will be and I simply do not believe the JR is more streamlined, or better cambered than a simple single spread of sail of equivalent outline and area.

Reefing yes; efficiency no.

I am tempted to point out aspects of the red sail on the canoe pictured further back up this subject to say nothing of all those complicated ways of doing simple things.  I am tempted

But I’m sure I’ve already upset enough people for one winter

Chris W

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[BrianP]

My Nautilus thread seems to have been hijacked somewhat but never mind. I do mind people saying junk rigs will outsail a lug rig upwind though. This new Trooper 12 with it's junk rig needs to come to Keyhaven and sail upwind against our local Scows. I hope you prove me wrong but I would reckon you would be heartbroken at being left so far behind. Sail area is about the same, so performance would be all.

Please come along and lets sail the two boats together. The Trooper is a sweet boat, and probably weighs half what a Scow weighs, so that should help the JR a bit.

Just to prove I forgive you for hijacking my thread -here's a John Marples 3m trimaran with a JR.

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=6745

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaYtk5DwHNo&feature=player_embedded



 

[Chris Waite]

Ah, Ratcatcher J.

You are surely referring to a much later moment when the horizontal plane of 'Rosie Mae' and that of the planet ceased to coincide; even slightly.  Aided and abetted by my remaining too long slouched in the bilges, or on that occasion some other equally ludicrous position - perched a tad too nonchalantly on her incisive coaming if my memory serves.

Did you see my reply to your question about bows back at 'Evolving Polly Wee' on 19 November?

CW

[Michael Rogers]

Brian

Insofar as I must shoulder a fair amount of the blame for the hijack, I do apologise. I propose to start a new thread to take the 'amounts of string etc' discussion further, and leave this one to topics closer to sailing canoes as such. I hope that's OK by the others involved, and think it's only fair on you (and everyone who is put off by too much string).

As for your Keyhaven challenge, I asked for that and of course I accept, not least because Keyhaven is one of my favourite sailing haunts. I've sailed a scow (traditional, clinker; around Poole Harbour and Studland), and know that they are super little goers. Actually I'm sure you agree that the only fair contest would be between two scows, one junk rigged. Incidentally I have little idea about the sailing performance of the standard Trouper, but am confident that the new rig will transform it. Nevertheless, you're on!

Michael

[simplesimon]

Michael
I think I am going to beg to differ...

The European lug rigs, be they dipping, standing or balanced, need only a halliard, a sheet and something to hold the tack down (which could be a hook on the mast) to set properly; no luff parrels, hong kong parrels or multitudinous sheets. Why? Because, I submit, it has a luff and leech that are under tension, sometimes under quite high tension. The downside is that when you reef it, you need to be able to maintain that tension, which means tying luff and leech cringles down to the tack and boom end. On a big boat that requires you to go on deck; on a small boat, merely the ability to reach the tack and boom end.

The western junk rig (and I suspect the Chinese rig from which it developed) does not have the luff and leech under high tension. In principle the sail is kept flat (in a vertical plane) by the weight of the booms and sailcloth (although I notice more and more JR sailors are using downhauls). To make that sail set properly, especially when reefed, without tying battens together, requires multiple sheets with parts attached to each batten end. Failure to do that in my experience mean that the stack of reefed battens fans out to leeward and all control is lost. At the other edge of the sail, you need the various parrel lines to stop the luff from going all over the place because it does not have the high tension that the European lug does.

Horses for courses: you can have a low-tension rig which needs lots of bits of string, or a high tension rig that needs fewer, but is more difficult to reef.
Slieve McGalliard's Split JR aside, I suspect most of the improvements in the performance of the western JR have come from increasing the tension in the rig.

I cannot agree though that JR is a lightweight rig in small sizes. JR battens are not the lightweight bits of plastic that slide into the luffs of bermudan mainsails. Think of them more as multiple booms. They need to be stiff, especially with the cambered panels that are now being used. Garden canes won't do. On a canoe-sized sail, I doubt they would be less than an inch in diameter to get the stiffness needed, and the lightest way of building them would be alloy tube. One of those I will agree is not heavy, but by the time you have five or six of them they have some weight...

Don't get me wrong; I am not especially anti-JR. It has a lot going for it, especially on offshore craft. But it has downsides as well (as do the European lugs). You need to understand both if you are going to make an informed decision.

Cheers
Simon

[Michael Rogers]

Simon

Those are very considered comments, and I agree with most of them. However I'm not sure that tension, particularly in the luff, has been increased that much in 'recent' JR. For a cambered panel sail, a 'standing' tack line providing downward pull, against which you tension the luff with the halyard providing upward pull, is all you need, at least in a small boat.

I can only say that MY junk sail bundle (68 sq ft) IS lightweight -that's spars, battens and sail itself - and that 3/4 in 16swg aluminium tubing has proved both light enough and stiff enough for the battens. However I'm coming to the view that cambered panels probably wouldn't work for a rig small enough for a sailing canoe. In that case I would try battens made up of two pieces of suitable strip wood laminated together, to give adequate bend (for a 'flat' JR sail) and sufficient strength. An area for experiment - suck it and see. And the final conclusion may well be that, having considered it in depth and detail, JR may not be suitable for a sailing canoe.

My final (actual final comment) is that when a slab reef is needed, the clew end of a boom thrashing around in a freshening breeze is one of the more challenging things a sailor has to deal with. In a small boat, it can be downright scary. If you 'tame' it too much while tying in that reef, attached bits of sail fill with that freshening breeze, and all sorts of untoward things may (and in my experience usually do) happen. The paradox is that the smaller and tippier the boat, the more attractive the reefing capability of JR seems to be. I have proved that small junk rig works beautifully for me, and have resolved that reefing paradox to my own complete satisfaction for my type of (non-combative) sailing. As you rightly say, Simon, horses for courses.

Cheers       Michael

[BrianP]

Lug rig sailors might be interested in how the local Lymington River Scows reef. When you take a rectangle of sail area away from the sail area by reefing, it moves the centre of effort of the sail. So to keep the dinghy well balanced and the helm neutral, the LR Scows move the halyard attachment slightly further up the yard, this also lowers the rig so the boom is back in its same height as before reefing and moves the centre of effort forward to where it was under full sail.

To avoid the thrashing of sail and struggling, the rig is dropped into the boat. The halyard is unclipped from the hook, taken out of the lower loop, passed just through the higher hoop, through the lower hoop and re-attached to the hook.



Boom end loop is passed around the forward boom end.



Pull in the reef cringle which is already set up, and tie off reef ties to tidy the sail.





This probably takes just a few minutes, and creates a superb high wind rig, that people find allows comfortable sailing well into 20 knots.

Brian


 

[David Bewick]

Brian,

In my experience, the KISS principle has a great deal going for it in most walks of life.  I have been pondering how I am going to rig and reef the lug sail on my Aber.  Single or double reefing lines will obviously work but they do require lots of string and blocks and I have been wondering whether a simpler system like the one used on the scows might be the best solution.  One question, though, relating to the yard.  Is there any kind of traveller that holds it against the mast of the Scows?  Traditionally, there is a metal ring that does this (or a plastic covered rope one in CW's adaptation) but there does not seem to be anything at all in your pics.

Regards,

David.

[BrianP]

Hi David, the Scows don't use any kind of traveller. The sail is fairly small and the 6:1 downhaul keeps everything tight to the mast.

Michael Storer uses a slightly different system on his lugs. He takes the halyard from the mast head, out through to a block on the yard and then the halyard is lead back to the front of the yard but going on the opposite side of the mast to side the yard is on. This helps hold the yard in place. The layout again is from the 1880's.



he also uses a restrainer on the boom,



Francois Vivier is such a expert in these things that I would apply the reefing systems he draws for the boat.

His recent blog linked to these wonderful cheerful pictures of an Ilur,



http://francois.vivier.info/albumsfr/Ilur/Triple_buse_2011/slides/DSC00073.html

Brian





 

[Port-Na-Storm]

Getting back to the original question about whether Junk Rig is useful for sailing canoes, the answer seem to be maybe but not quite.   Discussions about the comparative power of the sail against other types of rig can be set aside for once as out and out efficiency may not be what you are actually after.  If it was you’d probably choose to sail a completely different type of boat, but before anyone jumps in I’m deliberately excluding this kind of thing.


 I’m talking about leisurely cruising with perhaps a bit of excitement but not too much time spent swimming.
 What you need is something which is effective i.e. does all the things you require it to.  This will include the ability to sail on most points but up-wind isn’t necessarily important.



The original canoe sailors used the sail as an auxiliary form of propulsion when the wind was in their favour but were happy to paddle when it wasn’t, which brings us to the next requirement, the ability to strike the rig, on the water, from a seated position.  The ability to bring it down is every bit if not more important than the ability to raise sail under way.  JW’s Nautilus is quite beamy and might just put up with the crew taking a turn round the deck but most sailing canoes won’t. You have to be able to reach everything and not get too tangled up when it all comes down round your ears.  Look at the position of the helmsman relative to the rig in JW’s drawing at the top of this thread. The main sheet needs to be kept well away from this area.

Sailing Canoes are by nature very tippy so the centre of effort wants to be fairly low so that a reasonable amount of sail can still be carried without the boat falling over too soon.  In order to achieve this the ancient mariners adopted the yawl rig. Its low, well balanced and very versatile.


Some builders put quite large rigs on their boats but always with the ability to reef when necessary.
Fully battened sails were popular, these two examples of Iain Oughtred's MacGregor are typical of the rigs which were in vogue way back then. This is Chris Perkins' Scotch Mist, with its fully battened lug rig,



and Jonathan & Chris Wren's version with the Bat Wing probably the nearest thing to a junk rig you can get but without the complex main sheet. sailsaltsawdust.blogspot.com   



I'm guessing the main reason for the battened sail was the ability to keep it under control when making changes.
So the old guys got close to junk rig but not quite. Personally I think that the Bat Wing was a level of complexity and complication too far and having reached that point most builders backed off a bit, settling for gaff gunter or lug yawls.

Katie B will have a balanced lug main but might just go for something different on the mizzen, but at the current rate of progress she'll be wearing Pamela's Polythene drawers next season.

 
 

 

[BrianP]

Seeing how we are putting up lovely pictures of sailing canoes, here are some taken today of a new build 1880's George Holmes 14' Cassy. Went down to the Lyme Regis Boat Building end of term launchings today. Thanks again to Gavin for the heads up. It's a wonderfully happy occasion. Lots of cheering as each boat is launched.

Having problems with uploading videos from my camera, but here a few of the Cassy, called Micassy.







Really inspirational for seeing how handy nautilus will be.

Brian

[Port-Na-Storm]

She looks great Brian, a credit to her designer and builder.

I think there is a point where a sailing canoe grows into a canoe yawl, and I think that point is when the alternative form of propulsion involves facing backwards.

Nice boat just the same though.