No Free Lunch

[Paul H (admin)]

Nothing in life is free...and Nabble have announced they are employing another developer to improve the forum but will start hosting adverts to pay for the developer.

We can opt out of the adverts by paying a fee - more details later.

-Paul

[Jeremy]

I'm happy to contribute towards any fee, rather than having to put up with adverts.  Are they giving any sort of indication as to how much the charges may be?

Jeremy

[GregHBBR]

Hi Jeremy,

Jeremy wrote

I'm happy to contribute towards any fee, rather than having to put up with adverts.  Are they giving any sort of indication as to how much the charges may be?

There's good news!

I post a lot of answers on Nabble's Free Support Forum and they have awarded me "helper" status. Since publishing their advertising plans they emailed me privately asking for a list of URLs where I have Nabble application, saying they would put them on an exclusion list for adverts.

My reply included:
----------
I also persuaded the owner of:
http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/
to join Nabble and am a moderator there under the username "GregHBBR".
I'd be very grateful if that one could be included too. I have just
sent the owner a message via the site alerting him to the forthcoming
adverts, so it's no problem if that is pushing my luck.
----------

to which they said:
----------
Thanks, Greg. You are the boss here. I removed ads from all apps you listed.
If you see ads in any of those apps, please let me know asap.

Thanks for all the help!
Hugo
----------

However, if there are offers of contributions, then I would say that it would be worth registering a domain like "home-boat-builders.org.uk" - i.e. one that includes the obvious search terms that people use, not our initials, as that will help raise the profile of the site enormously and help draw people in.

It needn't cost much, from £3.29 a year at http://www.123-reg.co.uk (though I haven't read the small print there).

The only trouble is that last time we went round this buoy there were issues about where to attach a domain. There was a hope that people would contribute to one of the blogs at either:
http://ukhbbr.blogspot.com/
http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/
and that the domain should go to one of them. However, posting to a blog requires higher computing skills than a forum and maintaining those sites fell to a limited sub-group of members. There were also technical (payment!) issues on the ability to embed a forum in one of them.

The result was that no decision was made. (We're better at organising rallies!) My current view is that the forum is the place to attach a domain name and we should try to incorporate some of the very useful background material about the group, currently only found on the blogs, into a specialised locked area of the forum.

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Greg wrote,
The result was that no decision was made. (We're better at organising rallies!) My current view is that the forum is the place to attach a domain name and we should try to incorporate some of the very useful background material about the group, currently only found on the blogs, into a specialised locked area of the forum.

Not correct. I think a decision was made and that was to leave things alone.

I don't see why we should change the domain name of the forum. It may attract more people from searches but I'm not really sure that is a group objective.
Why duplicate content from the web site onto the forum?

If nabble are prepared to exclude adverts from this forum in exchange for the good work you do supporting their users, then let's say thanks and leave things as they are.

Graham

[Jeremy]

Port-Na-Storm wrote

I don't see why we should change the domain name of the forum. It may attract more people from searches but I'm not really sure that is a group objective.
Why duplicate content from the web site onto the forum?

If nabble are prepared to exclude adverts from this forum in exchange for the good work you do supporting their users, then let's say thanks and leave things as they are.

Graham

I'm in agreement, Graham.  People seem to find us OK so there's no real need to change things.

The only caveat I'd add is that there may come a time when Nabble need payment, so we may want to think about how we'd deal with this if it arises.

Jeremy

[GregHBBR]

Port-Na-Storm wrote

Not correct. I think a decision was made and that was to leave things alone.

Memory never was my strong point so I'm sure you're right.

I can't recall, but perhaps the decision at that time was, in part, made because the forum was then seen as still experimental. I'd suggest that it is now mature and any decision made then worthy of revisiting.

I don't see why we should change the domain name of the forum. It may attract more people from searches but I'm not really sure that is a group objective.
Why duplicate content from the web site onto the forum?

I would challenge the notion that it is not important to attract new members. New blood is always important to any group, and on the web, searches are the primary tool for that.

Whatever the decision then, a look at the other two sites now suggests that both have been abandoned. Having the key background material about the group only available on abandoned sites is, surely, undesirable. The point about a domain name was, perhaps, a red herring. More important, I feel, is that the material on the three sites should be drawn together in some better way than links with sites that appear abandoned.

[Anders]

Just one little thing

This forum is pretty new and its a small group of persons. So I would call it pretty fragile. Its alive, its well, there´s activity. There apersons with a lot of knowledge. But to change domain now, I would consider a bad idea.

I personally like the forum the way it is. It is growing and it would be a good thing to grow a little more. BUT,  bigger is not always better. Just look at the woodenboat forum... Which I clearly dislike because of the huge amount of 10000 posters who fill the forum and who think they know everything.
In my short time here, I´ve learned a lot more than I ever did there. I like comming here even though I´m very far from your rallies (one day ) And I dont mind that there are days with no posts.... I do have a life and things to do.

[GregHBBR]

Anders wrote

But to change domain now, I would consider a bad idea.

You misunderstand the implications. It would not be a change. The site would still be hosted at the same location and the current URL would continue to work. It would be an additional verbal and search engine friendly way to find and be directed to the forum.

You may not do it often, but think of our current address:
http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/
Have you ever considered trying to:
# Give it to someone verbally (e.g. over the telephone or while chatting in a pub).
# Memorise it, if seen on a Notice Board.

Think of the last time you used a search engine. You will have found that the terms you used for the search will all have appeared in the top results in both or either of the blue (Title) or green (URL) line.

It is always important to have an easily spoken and memorised URL.

[Frogsider]

I agree with Anders' post above.  Moreover I would be willing to pay a modest membership fee if necessary.  

And if it is ever felt eventually that there should be a new UK HBBR site with this forum, small ads, blog pages, etc. integrated in it,  I would be happy to do the work to set it up - not that I think there's anything wrong with what is already here.

[Anders]

It is always important to have an easily spoken and memorised URL.

You´re right and i didnt see it that way. I myself will contribute with money if nescesary

[Chris Partridge]

Actually, it is very easy to transmit the url verbally. Just say 'put uk hbbr forum' into Google' and they will get right here.

[GregHBBR]

Chris Partridge wrote

Just say 'put uk hbbr forum' into Google' and they will get right here.

Just tried that! Even given Google's latest technology, which is meant to give everyone a more personalised set of results, I could not find any page from http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com in the first five pages of results. I gave up at that point and couldn't be bothered to look further, so the method isn't reliable.

I still say having something like this would be better:
http://www.homebuiltboat.plus.com/forum.html
This is something I knocked up in the free space that PlusNet provide to dialup users. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed the full UK-HBBR name in the URL as they don't allow sufficient characters but, once recognised by search engines, it should help those seeking information on our topic while not knowing about our group.

Currently it's easy, when using links on the site to the forum, to "escape" from the containing "homebuiltboat" URL, and lose the group name and main menu from the page, but it would be easy to add a "redirect" to the forum page and so keep it all together, if people think it would do no harm and might help those searching for us.

[Jeremy]

Interesting

I just typed "UK HBBR forum" (no quotes) into Bing and the first four hits would have got you here.  The first hit was the Wordpress front page, the second hit was this forum front page, the third hit was the link to this forum front page from the Wordpress site and the fourth hit was a post on this forum by me regarding the Cordless Challenge.

Looks to me as if Chris' idea works just fine, but interesting to note that Google has a problem.  I stopped using Google a year or so ago when they removed the UK-only search option from their search engine front page.  It was just too tedious to have to effectively search twice every time I wanted just predominately UK domains returned.

Jeremy

[Ratcatcherjohn]

Jeremy     I just put         - UK HBBR forum -     (No - - )  into Google and got 8 out of 10 relevant hits on the first page.  Google Rocks !!  Or is it just that my system that is so outdated?
 
There again, what do I understand about IT? , its just a black art sent to confuse simple Yorkshiremen.
 
John

---

Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 06:44:36 -0700
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: No Free Lunch

Interesting

I just typed "UK HBBR forum" (no quotes) into Bing and the first four hits would have got you here.  The first hit was the Wordpress front page, the second hit was this forum front page, the third hit was the link to this forum front page from the Wordpress site and the fourth hit was a post on this forum by me regarding the Cordless Challenge.

Looks to me as if Chris' idea works just fine, but interesting to note that Google has a problem.  I stopped using Google a year or so ago when they removed the UK-only search option from their search engine front page.  It was just too tedious to have to effectively search twice every time I wanted just predominately UK domains returned.

Jeremy

---

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[GregHBBR]

Jeremy wrote

I just typed "UK HBBR forum" (no quotes) into Bing and the first four hits
would have got you here.  The first hit was the Wordpress front page, the
second hit was this forum front page, the third hit was the link to this
forum front page from the Wordpress site and the fourth hit was a post on
this forum by me regarding the Cordless Challenge.

I get a very similar mix of results from Bing, that does include links to the front page of the Wordpress site and front page of the forum.

That just shows that each engine has its strengths and weaknesses, depending on the search, and you should not rely on one alone.

I stopped using Google a year or so ago when they
removed the UK-only search option from their search engine front page.

I don't ever recall it doing that unless your system was set to go to google.com. If you went to google.co.uk you got UK biassed results straight away. Time for you to revisit Google, I think.

A lot has changed in the last year and the last few months. These days a UK-based person should get a UK bias by default, which can be removed by a single click. Even if they go to google.com there's a link to google.co.uk at the bottom of the home page. When using Firefox, at least, it's producing results as you type amending them as you add more terms. There's not even a need to click a "Search Now" button.

[GregHBBR]

Ratcatcherjohn wrote

Jeremy     I just put         - UK HBBR forum -     (No - - )  into Google and got 8 out of 10 relevant hits on the first page.  Google Rocks !!  Or is it just that my system that is so outdated?

I got relevant results on Google too, but I wasn't hoping for "relevant" results. I was hoping to find our Nabble forum at least on the first page. When I tried it, none of the first fifty results would take you directly to the forum, only to other sites that either mentioned the UK-HBBR and sometimes offered a link to it.

However, we must not confuse the two issues.
1. What reliable verbal method is there for directing people to the forum?

It seems that those who use Google may only get there by first visiting another site on its results page and clicking a link from that other site, while Bing users are better served.

2. For those who don't know about us and are using search engines to get help with their home boat building project, how do we get the forum a higher listing (For some, it seems, the question is should be bother)?

For that we do need Page Titles and a URL that include the words people are likely to search for. I can easily generate a few pages to add to the "cloak" for the forum that is http://www.homebuiltboat.plus.com/. I just need people to remember/propose the terms that they used or think others would use when first searching what they now realise is the UK-HBBR forum.

Bear in mind that search engines take a while to find and index a site, so it may take a few months for anything we do now to take effect.

[Jeremy]

GregHBBR wrote

I don't ever recall it doing that unless your system was set to go to google.com. If you went to google.co.uk you got UK biassed results straight away. Time for you to revisit Google, I think.

A lot has changed in the last year and the last few months. These days a UK-based person should get a UK bias by default, which can be removed by a single click. Even if they go to google.com there's a link to google.co.uk at the bottom of the home page. When using Firefox, at least, it's producing results as you type amending them as you add more terms. There's not even a need to click a "Search Now" button.

There was a big hoo haa on the Google forum when they took the UK only option off the front page (and this was on the UK Google site).  

The way Google are controlling how people search really angers me.  There are times I want to search for UK-specific content (suppliers, for example, when purchasing from outside the UK is too expensive) and there are times when I want to search globally (maybe seeking technical information when a UK-only, or even UK-biased search will give me a poor chance of finding what I need).

Having experienced first hand the arrogant response from Google on their forum regarding the way that I would be so much better off letting them decide what I really wanted to search for (and also having discovered that they would deliberately bias the outcome to maximise their income stream.........) I vowed to never type the Google domain into a browser ever again.

Bing isn't great, but it does at least replicate the way Google used to work to some degree and also provides a screen format that is viable on my netbook.  Google lost my business by first unilaterally changing their front page option to remove the UK-only button, thus making me perform a global search, loading a page of hits that were optimised for their profit, and only then allowing me to search for UK specific content.  They added to this by changing the screen format so that hit information was restricted to a narrow stripe down the centre that is virtually unusable on a small screen.

Don't get me started on the exceedingly irritating way that the "I'm going to guess what you want from the first few characters "feature"".  That has to be the most infuriating bit of crap that any software writer ever created.  It's literally had me screaming in annoyance at the way it's trying to second guess me, when I'm reasonably intelligent enough to know exactly what Boolean search parameters I am going to type in.  To add to the insult, Google wouldn't let you turn that "feature" off without logging on to your account with Google, just so they could gather more personal information about your interests, presumably to profit from in some way.

Jeremy

[momist]

On my Ubuntu linux system, Google for UK HBBR came up with the wordpress site for the first hit, and the nabble site for the second.

Ian

[Forthsailoar]

Surely the point is, if you don't know about HBBR, you won't search HBBR, but "home boat building" or similar.

Osbert

[Tomsk]

"I stopped using Google a year or so ago when they removed the UK-only search option from their search engine front page.  It was just too tedious to have to effectively search twice every time I wanted just predominately UK domains returned.

Jeremy"

I have to agree that this is starting to wind me up with Google. A great shame after doing so much to standardise search engines and make information more open to the masses...

Tomsk

On Aug 16, 2011 2:44 PM, "Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]> wrote: