Pedal powered canoes

[Joe]

Hello all,

I hope I'm not breaking any implicit forum rules by posting something I have a business interest in, but I thought it might be something that would be of interest here anyway.

Some of your will have seen my boat "Velociraptor" at the Beale Park Boat Show, both in its guise as a cordless drill powered boat, and as a pedal powered boat for two people.

I decided to try to commercialise these two person pedal powered boats, and after a lot of prototyping and testing, settled on the design you can see here. Ignore the pole sticking out the stern - that was for a camera! As an aside, for those who are interested, an annotated timelapse video of a journey up the navigable section of the River Wensum is here:
A timetapse trip through Norwich on the River Wensum



There are a lot more pictures on my website at http://www.pedalcraft.co.uk and there are also some videos from the Cordless Canoe Challenge, and a bit of a write up of the Thames Traditional Boat Rally.

In order to raise the starting capital required to meet the minimum orders for wholesale components and to move into some proper premises, I've started a Kickstarter campaign. (kickstarter is a "crowdfunding" site, where people with ideas in the "ready to go to manufacture" stage seek capital from individuals, who in return are the first to receive the product when it is made, or can get other rewards for their patronage). There is a more thorough write up and a promo video on that site:

Rutland Pedalcraft Tandem on Kickstarter

Of course, for the more discerning customer, there will be the option to have a wooden hull! :-)

I'd be delighted to hear your thoughts on the idea and the Kickstarter campaign!

Joe

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Joe,
Good luck with your venture, I wish you all success.

Now the typical HBBR questions;
Will you be offering the drive system on its own,

Will there be a solo version and how effective is it?

Have you protected your intellectual property before this lot start building their own versions.

What sort of price point are you aiming at?

Cheers
Graham

[Joe]

Hi Graham,

Thanks for the good wishes - I'll need them!

Addressing the questions..

I think on a sort of informal level, I'd be happy enough to sell the drive unit on its own for people to put into boats they already own. I think I'll think about doing this once I have the complete-boat thing going.

I don't plan to do a solo version any time soon, because I think there is a lot more perceived value-added in a two person design. I think I'm selling on the basis of it being a nice activity to share with a friend. However, a faster, sleeker version is something I'm thinking about, for two people who want to have a workout, and keep up with double sculls!

Initially, my retail price will be £2500. On first reading, that sounds like quite a lot of money. However, other pedal boats in this style have been much more expensive. My margins in that are quite slim!

I'd be very happy to offer people on here a go if they are interested - anyone in or around Norfolk?

Joe

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Joe,
Good luck with your venture, I wish you all success.

Now the typical HBBR questions;
Will you be offering the drive system on its own,

Will there be a solo version and how effective is it?

Have you protected your intellectual property before this lot start building their own versions.

What sort of price point are you aiming at?

Cheers
Graham

Port-Na-Storm

http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Pedal-powered-canoes-tp4026756p4026757.html

To unsubscribe from Pedal powered canoes, click here.
NAML

[Paul H (admin)]

Joe,

You will find that if your pedal units are cheaper than importing a Mirage Drive from the USA there will be a lot of interest here from HBBR members. We have often drooled at the idea of fitting a Mirage Drive to various home made boats but the price has been too high for most of us. Timmo is the Mirage pioneer so he can tell us the costs (in the region of £500 I think)

If the price is right your pedal units might just walk off the shelves! We often do long Raids down the Thames and many rowers want to look forward.

Also most of us will want a single person version - we have found that the probability of both keen sailor + spouse on board tends towards zero.

-Paul

[Joe]

Hi Paul,

If that is the case, maybe I should do it!

Generally speaking, is there an interest in the two person pedalling unit, or is the single Hobie more suitable for your types of trips? I think I could easily knock out a single drive unit if there was a demand for it, for a price which is significantly less than the Hobie.

I've never actually used a Hobie, but I understand the action is more like a stepper machine than a bike? Is this true?

Joe

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Paul (admin) [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Joe,

You will find that if your pedal units are cheaper than importing a Mirage Drive from the USA there will be a lot of interest here from HBBR members. We have often drooled at the idea of fitting a Mirage Drive to various home made boats but the price has been too high for most of us. Timmo is the Mirage pioneer so he can tell us the costs (in the region of £500 I think)

If the price is right your pedal units might just walk off the shelves! We often do long Raids down the Thames and many rowers want to look forward.

-Paul

http://www.millibee.com

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Pedal-powered-canoes-tp4026756p4026759.html

To unsubscribe from Pedal powered canoes, click here.
NAML

[Paul H (admin)]

Joe,

Yes a single version would be popular here. Lets wait for Timmo to chime in, also Jeremy knows a huge amount about efficient props.

How about this idea at the lower end of the market. You could import bike parts cheap from China, add a healthy markup and sell us a DIY hardware kit to make our own frames from plywood - more eco friendly than an aluminium frame and most likely cheaper and strong enough.
When that is up and running there are some folk who have access to a CNC to crank out (ha ha) ready made frames for those that don't have the skills/time to build a frame.

-cheers
Paul

[mattltm]

I would love to see a single person, kit version of this.

Nice work.

[Timmo]

Hi all, as the resident Mirage Drive user here's my contribution:

Currently I think a Mirage Drive, with ST Turbo Fins, would be around £600 inc VAT. Haven't actually checked that recently but exchange rates haven't improved noticeably so I doubt it's cheaper than that now.

Yes Joe, the action is more of a stepper back and forth motion than a rotational pedalling motion. Can offer some advantage to those of us with dodgy knees but I still ride a bike so I don't think that will be a major competitive distinction. Price will be far more significant

Main disadvantage of the Mirage Drive is its propensity for collecting weed, really impairs its performance. Not a huge issue to lift it and clear it but I'd be interested in an alternative that was self clearing.  Also the drive power of the Mirage Drive, while impressive, is limited and I think Zelva is about the biggest (widest) boat it can push effectively. If the pedal drive can be configured to push a boat around Walkabout size along efficiently it would find an even bigger market. Other thing a Mirage Drive won't do is reverse. Not a major problem for someone used to sailing and therefore thinking ahead to lose way and come alongside without being able to brake suddenly. But a pedal drive able to reverse would offer extra benefit (though weed clearing would be more important if it came to a choice.)

Watching with interest, wish you the very best of luck with the business venture and put me on the list of potential clients for a stand alone unit.

Tim.

[Joe]

Hi Tim,

I'm interested in what you say about the Mirage with respect to weed and boat size. Weed is a concern of mine right now, as my implementation presently uses a model airplane type prop, and on occasion has snagged some weed. However, seeing Dennis A's folding type propellor and observing how successful that seems to be has got me thinking along the lines of a micro version of that.

I will produce a mock up of a single person unit, and post some pictures, along with a price.

If anyone has any thoughts of what would some nifty features or ways of accomodating their specific application, I'd love to hear them.

Joe

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all, as the resident Mirage Drive user here's my contribution:

Currently I think a Mirage Drive, with ST Turbo Fins, would be around £600 inc VAT. Haven't actually checked that recently but exchange rates haven't improved noticeably so I doubt it's cheaper than that now.

Yes Joe, the action is more of a stepper back and forth motion than a rotational pedalling motion. Can offer some advantage to those of us with dodgy knees but I still ride a bike so I don't think that will be a major competitive distinction. Price will be far more significant

Main disadvantage of the Mirage Drive is its propensity for collecting weed, really impairs its performance. Not a huge issue to lift it and clear it but I'd be interested in an alternative that was self clearing.  Also the drive power of the Mirage Drive, while impressive, is limited and I think Zelva is about the biggest (widest) boat it can push effectively. If the pedal drive can be configured to push a boat around Walkabout size along efficiently it would find an even bigger market. Other thing a Mirage Drive won't do is reverse. Not a major problem for someone used to sailing and therefore thinking ahead to lose way and come alongside without being able to brake suddenly. But a pedal drive able to reverse would offer extra benefit (though weed clearing would be more important if it came to a choice.)

Watching with interest, wish you the very best of luck with the business venture and put me on the list of potential clients for a stand alone unit.

Tim.

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Pedal-powered-canoes-tp4026756p4026765.html

To unsubscribe from Pedal powered canoes, click here.
NAML

[Chris Waite]

Further to the Perfect River Raid Boat subject:

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/The-Perfect-River-Raid-Boat-PRRB-td3087587.html

I'm (very slowly) working up a train of thought which is to include possibly being driven by a single pedal powered propeller unit and I was going to try and get our ace scientist, Jeremy involved....

So you have stepped straight into the limelight as far as I'm concerned as well, Joe

Keep tantalizing!

Chris W

[Paul H (admin)]

Chris Waite wrote

I'm (very slowly) working up a train of thought which is to include possibly being driven by a single pedal powered propeller unit and I was going to try and get our ace scientist, Jeremy involved....

Like Chris I'm wondering if MilliBee (14ft x 6ft pocket cruiser) could be pedal driven - hard work perhaps but it might suit me better than a Yuloh.

-Paul

[Joe]

I will receive a quote in the coming days for my first production run. Arising from the thoughts here, I've also made a pedal drive variant for a single person. I'll post some pictures and a price in the coming days.

Thanks for all your contributions - I hadn't even considered offering the unit as a single person stand alone unit, and now it seems to have as much interest as the Tandem boat!

Joe

[BrianP]

Joe, I am also interested in the solo pedal power variant. I have a finished 16' Oughtred Snipefish hull which could prove pretty good for a pedal power boat. We have never managed to finish the hull as a rowing boat with sliding seat, and I love cycling, really need to face forward, so could be good to go.

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/Snipefish.pdf

The Snipefish only uses two sheets of 5mm plywood to build the hull so is very efficient in materials costs.

Brian

[Jeremy]

Looks a neat design, Joe.  I too think that an add-on solo pedal unit would be popular with home builders, I might well be tempted myself.

[Paul H (admin)]

Joe,

Some thoughts:

Here at HBBR we can all build a strong frame for the pedals from plywood and epoxy; likewise there are many builders worldwide that could do the same.  

Holding the bearings might be tricky, but we can do some experiments to find the best solution. Maybe a hub containing the bearings could be clamped in place. For chain tensioning a sliding frame in two parts locked with bolts is one solution.

A plywood frame is very convenient as it can be attached in many ways - glued, screwed, bolted, clamped and even held by rope and cleats.

Timmo built an internal box above water level for his Hobie Drive to slot into and be removed when trailering. The box was glued with epoxy to become a permanent part of the hull and never leak - one of the advantages of wooden boats is that they are easy to modify.

Of course you might be producing the whole nine yards - pedals, frame, drive shaft. So a frame that can attach to an internal hull box would be ideal - then we could remove the drive for safely transporting the boat on a roof rack or trailer or simply when we would prefer to row/paddle. (I noticed your prototype drive seemed to be permanently clamped to the glass fibre boat with a rubber seal)

-Paul

[Port-Na-Storm]

Paul is correct that it would be useful if the unit could be de-mountable and especially if this can be done quickly to remove weed or when coming in to shallow water.
Now I know I'm really pushing my luck here but if it could be made thin enough to slide down into a standard centreboard case, or at least one which wasn't too wide then we'd really be talking.

[alopenboat]

Can the device be removed, like the Mirage, while afloat?


On 25 Jul 2013 at 10:38, Joe [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> I will receive a quote in the coming days for my first production run.
> Arising from the thoughts here, I've also made a pedal drive variant
> for a single person. I'll post some pictures and a price in the coming
> days.
>
> Thanks for all your contributions - I hadn't even considered offering
> the unit as a single person stand alone unit, and now it seems to have
> as much interest as the Tandem boat!
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
> discussion below:
> http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Pedal-powered-canoes-tp40267
> 56p4026772.html To start a new topic under General Discussion, email
> [hidden email] To unsubscribe from UK HBBR
> Forum, visit
> http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?mac
> ro=unsubscribe_by_code&node=1558041&code=b3BlbmJvYXRAYXM2amcuZnJlZXVrL
> mNvbXwxNTU4MDQxfC0yMDIwODM4MTA4
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3209/6524 - Release Date:
> 07/26/13

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

[Paul H (admin)]

Joe,

You might find this tutorial useful:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/mirage/free.cfm


Many folk sail on the coast and launch from a shallow beach full of sand/rocks ready to rip off anything sticking underneath - which is why pivoting centerboards and rudder blades were invented.
Demount-able could become a strong selling point.

-Paul

[Joe]

Hi all,

The unit cannot be derigged from the boat while you are afloat.. not unless you want to cease to be afloat quickly! The unit clamps to the bottom of the hull, with a flange sealing off the slot through which the propshaft goes.

However, I would say that the unit is robust enough to be run aground upon. An aluminium skeg protects the propeller, and I would say that the whole boat could be hauled ashore on mud or sand with the unit in place.

That isn't to say that some enterprising individual with such a drive couldn't fashion some sort of bellows system to allow retraction and keep sealed.

BrianP - I agree that the design you mention looks ideal, and I think that a single version of this unit could easily be fitted.

Paul - I don't think the unit could be easily rigged to make use of a normal centreboard casing. It is ideally suited to the bottom of a reasonably flat bottomed boat, with no existing centreboard or skeg.  

I've got a design for a single unit drawn up and I'll post some pictures in the next couple of days.

Joe

[Timmo]

For a pedal drive system that drops through a slot (might be a little wider than a daggerboard) the "Sea-Cycle" is the closest thing i've seen.

http://www.sea-cycle.com/accessories/sea-cycle-drive-units

But it's even more expensive than a Hobie Mirage Drive and seems to need more maintenance and care in use to keep the chain adjusted, make sure it doesn't get water in the mechanism or spill oil. Also have to make sure the prop is lined up right before retracting the unit!

I'm happy to experiment with a prop shaft. With the prop at the stern the hull and skeg could help keep weeds off it. If it were a folding prop that would help it clear weeds as well (though it would limit reverse performance.) I'm interested in the wide range of props that would be available (even making them?) and how that would help tune the drive to the requirements of a specfic hull.

Being able to demount the pedal unit is useful for those of us looking for sleeping space aboard. The section of prop shaft below floorboard height can stay in place so it's just a question of what's involved in unclamping the pedal unit from the floor and the prop shaft and whether that then leaves a level surface for a sleeping mat. Once we see some pics of the unit a number of brains will be applied to the possibilities.

Tim.


On 28 Jul 2013, at 16:19, Joe [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The unit cannot be derigged from the boat while you are afloat.. not unless you want to cease to be afloat quickly! The unit clamps to the bottom of the hull, with a flange sealing off the slot through which the propshaft goes.