Pedal powered canoes

[Joe]

I see what you mean about being able to remove the drive to make space for sleeping. If you were able to haul a boat with my system onto the bank, remove the drive and fit a blanking plate, that might do the job. But thats a bit of a chore!

[Timmo]

Gotcha! Hadn't watched the video. Had imagined the prop shaft running further back.

It's a very neat unit.

Could be demountable without a blanking plate if it sat in a well (as described on the website Paul flagged) but doesn't look like it will be easy to remove while afloat.  The neatest long term solution to creating sleeping space would be an engineering evolution that allowed the pedal part of the mechanism to be removed (easily) leaving the prop and hull plate in place.

So far you've only fitted it to canoes. A further evolution might be looking at how easy it is to swap gearing and offer a range of props to meet the propulsion needs of larger boats.

Really want this to succeed!

Tim.

On 28 Jul 2013, at 22:01, Joe [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> In the video on the Kickstarter page, you can see how it all goes together.
>

[alopenboat]

On 28 Jul 2013 at 22:50, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
> Could be demountable without a blanking plate if it sat in a well (as
> described on the website Paul flagged) but doesn't look like it will
> be easy to remove while afloat.  The neatest long term solution to
> creating sleeping space would be an engineering evolution that allowed
> the pedal part of the mechanism to be removed (easily) leaving the
> prop and hull plate in place.
>

I would be very wary of sleeping aboard in tidal waters with the skeg
in position. Drying onto soft mud may be alright but hard sand or
rock could lead to an uncomfortable night (and possibly a damaged
skeg).

 --
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

[Jeremy]

Looking at the neat skeg design it reminds me of a pivoting centreboard.  If it has a two blade prop, and if the prop can be locked in the vertical position (something I've done with a similar retracting prop system) then maybe it could just pivot up into a fairly slender case?

This would widen the appeal a lot, I think, as having things sticking out of the bottom of a hull can be a nuisance, both when launching and recovering and when drying out on mud or sand.

Although it would be nice to be able to remove the case to allow a flat sleeping area, my feeling is that there won't be large numbers of customers that want this.  Most will probably be looking for a system for a day boat, used in fairly sheltered waters.

I like the seats you've designed, Joe.  I think there would be a market for them as separate components, too.

[Port-Na-Storm]

I know some of you will be bored with me preaching on about one of my favourite subjects, but this is given in an honest attempt to encourage Joe and try to help the project along.

The subject is of course Requirement Creep, which is where the client keeps going off and dreaming up new requirements which add cost complexity and time, making the deliverable undeliverable. It has a close cousin called techno creep where the techies add extra bits on just because they can, with the same outcome, increasing complexity, adding cost etc.

There are a lot of boating opportunities where there is a constant depth of water, e.g. navigable rivers like The Thames, lakes, The Broads etc. where a boat will not have to be beached or dry out. There will be very few users who will perceive the need to sleep in their boats. I also think there could be a large market sector in the leisure hire fleet, where this type of boat could be very attractive to those who don't normally paddle or row but are familiar with the concept of "cycling".

So my advice would be to go to market with the simplest drive unit you can build, and get some return on your investment. Further developments will always be possible and feedback from users will be the best way to gauge what's required.

Once again apologies to those who've seen it before, but I always think its worth remembering what you actually set out to do.



Best Regards Graham
 

[Timmo]

Well said Graham.

It's fun having the discussions Joe but don't be diverted into uneconomic activity by them!

The Marmite principle works, you famously either love it or hate it.  They haven't tried changing the recipe to appeal to a wider group (as far as I know) but there's enough buying it to make it comfortably profitable.

In the meantime, being the HBBR, we will no doubt continue to propose and discuss more or less impractical variations to meet our diverse individual requirements. Some of us will even buy your units and perform modifications of our own. That's why we're the HBBR, not the MMPBR (Mass Market Plastic Boat Rally.)

Tim 

On 29 Jul 2013, at 13:23, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

So my advice would be to go to market with the simplest drive unit you can build, and get some return on your investment. Further developments will always be possible and feedback from users will be the best way to gauge what's required.

[BrianP]

At 28 seconds into the video, you fit the unit into the hull, in what 2 seconds, or so. Amazing.

The solo version might well be easier to pivot forward, raising the drive plate into a centre board case as Jeremy suggests.

Agree the seats to very comfy.

Keep going.....

Brian

[Chris Waite]

I'm with Jeremy on this

If you had a centreboard-type case, then the skeg and prop (in correct alignment), could easily retract into the case when not in use.  I once built a proa that required a rudder at each end, (as they do - obviously) and I made them up as blades on the end of centreboards, so that the leading one on whichever tack could be retracted.


For the ‘Pedalcraft’, this would involve mounting the propeller on the aft end of a swept centreboard-come-skeg, pretty much as it is already designed and having the crown and pinion gearbox on the upper forward end of the board working directly onto pedals, (look, no chain!).  The board itself would be pivoted to extend, or retract, at the lower forward end.  This would require ‘centring’ the prop before retraction, but I used to have to do that with the rudders as well….

No problemo!

A pin would hold the board down while pedalling, otherwise it will try to retract at every footfall.  It could even be designed so that the pin can only be removed to retract, when the propeller is vertical.

Positioning the ‘case’ also provides options.  In the standard location – rather forward of amidships in a dinghy, leaving you with a chair about where mine is for the 'Pedyuloh' on ‘Polly Wee’ is the obvious choice.

However it did occur to me that if the case were aft – open through under the hull with the slot extending up the transom, then you could retract at any rotation of the prop, bringing it up behind the transom itself.  To reduce surface penetrating effect and associated turbulence, this might require nifty plates on the lower edge of the transom, such as are fitted to power boats to assist planing. These would need to flip up as the system was retracted.

There are two problems with this, firstly to sit in a suitable position to maintain the fore and aft pitch of the hull would require extending the shaft at an angle….    requiring a universal joint – a simple double pin into a two oblong-holed circular plate would do and this with its gearbox and pedals could be easily demountable to clear the centre of the boat for camping and other purposes.  The other problem is that like the Pedyuloh, the bow will tend to blow off when going upwind, though a rudder (and a forward board, as I have considered for my ‘Perfect River Raid Boat’ would discourage this).

I would upload a selection of photographs and sketches, but tonight Lily the Laptop and Nicko the Nabble between them, are not in the mood.

Are you still paying attention at the back?

Christo the W

[Chris Waite]

....and another thing young Graham

What's all this arrant tosh about there being "very few users who will perceive the need to sleep in their boats"?

It seems to me we spend an inordinate amount of raid time pushing into increasing drizzly twilight and otherwise planning and/or wandering about looking for camping places for those who are not organized enough to sleep aboard, moored alongside the nearest pub path.

Tie up, boom up, beer down and snug down

Less of the canvas contretemps, my lad

Rip van Waitel

[Port-Na-Storm]

Jo,
I refer you to my previous post.
Stick to the knitting.

Graham

[Alan]

I might as well throw my two cents worth in;
If I had a pedal boat my passenger would prefer to face forward to see where she is going, so you could make the forward seat reversible.
A blanking plate could be supplied as an optional extra, which would make the boat more versatile.

[Paul H (admin)]

Chris Waite wrote

It seems to me we spend an inordinate amount of raid time pushing into increasing drizzly twilight and otherwise planning and/or wandering about looking for camping places for those who are not organized enough to sleep aboard, moored alongside the nearest pub path.

Tie up, boom up, beer down and snug down

I'm with Chris - sleeping aboard is brilliant, given the choice I wouldn't trade it for anything.

-Paul

[Joe]

Hi all,

I appreciate what is said about the benefits of being able to "wet remove" the pedal drive. I don't think initially I will change the design to articulate up and out, because in the sorts of bodies of water that I anticipate my boat being used in, it shouldn't be a problem. And the unit is strong enough to be hauled up over a quay heading.

However, I will consider how to do this for the next major redesign. In the meantime, if the drives were to be used in other peoples boats, I think that it would be possible to build up a casing around them to "island" them from the dry insides of the boat, and then it could be removed.

I'll have some pictures of the unit and the proposed single version later today..

Thanks for all the input everyone - it's great market research!

Joe

[Joe]

Hello all,

As promised, a possible "single person" pedal drive. Omitted from the picture are the chain, pedals, sprocket on the gearbox and the propeller, which will be a modified model aircraft propeller. You just need to cut a slot in your hull (about 530mm long and 30mm wide) and accomodate 8 mounting studs, sandwiching your hull between the unit and a plate on the underside of the hull.

However - the bad news. The price at present I could make them to sell to you for would be around £800.  The problem with low volumes and in some cases having to buy retail priced parts. There would be a lead time of about 3 weeks. On the plus side - you can reverse with this thing!

Joe

p.s. Alan - in my Tandem pedalboat, you can turn the front seat around, and just pedal as a single person from the stern if you wish! Or if you'd like to see where you've been, you can turn the stern seat backwards and have the bowman do all the work!

[Timmo]

Thanks Joe.

Understand the problem of low volume.

How much would a double unit for installing in a home build boat be (given you may be projecting bigger volume sales of them)?

Tim.

On 31 Jul 2013, at 12:53, Joe [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> The price at present I could make them to sell to you for would be around £800.

[Alan]

Pedalcraft gets a mention on Gizmag:

http://www.gizmag.com/tandem-pedal-canoe/28507/

[Chris Waite]

Joe

Why with the single unit can you not alter the drive ratio, (which is presumably crown and pinion) and attach the pedals straight to the gearbox?  I appreciate it might mean having the shaft at a rather greater angle, but it would greatly simplify the whole system.

Interestingly, the height of the bulkhead between the two halves of my skiff 'Octavia' and the length of a cycle crank are both about seven and a half inches, though it would be necessary to add the distance from the average heel to the ball of the foot, to clear the hull when pedalling.  Mine is about the same distance, so the gearbox would need to be centred fifteen inches above the keel.

What is the radius of the propeller?

Chris W

[Joe]

Hi all,

Chris - interesting idea about attaching the cranks to the gearbox. I think that achieving the gearing is easier with a chain as it gives you 5:1 very easily and cheaply, rather than multistage gearboxes. Also, bike cranks are nice and cheap, and fit onto square tapers - having the inputs to the gearbox have such machined features would be difficult.

I've started work now on my first 5 production boats. Should have some ready for sale by the end of August. I'll try to refine down the price I quoted earlier for a single drive unit.

It would be interesting to bring this along on a raid with you folk at some point - see how it fares!

Joe

[eric17]

another idea (russian, but I think I saw it long time ago in a French catalogue)
http://marinaiditerraferma.blogspot.fr/2013/08/elica-mano.html or http://www.vodnyimir.ru/Ruchnoi_lastovyi_dvijitel_dlya_lodki.html

[simplesimon]

eric17 wrote

another idea (russian, but I think I saw it long time ago in a French catalogue)

Commonly called a whale-tail.

It's more effective if of higher aspect ratio, and the whole thing is allowed to move up and down instead of just pivoting about its leading edge. (Think of it as a yuloh on its side)

Simon