The Perfect River Raid Boat (PRRB)

[Timmo]

Remember, two types of CO2 emissions. 

Neutral in the short to medium term like most of our CO2 output. We consume carbon drawn from the atmosphere by the plants we (or the animals we eat) ate. Same as burning wood. Wood grows, converts CO2 to Carbon and Oxygen. We burn wood converting Carbon and Oxygen to CO2. It's a short cycle that keeps about the same volume of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Then there's the unbalanced consumption of carbon products. Oil and coal deposits locked away for millennia being converted to CO2 without a corresponding volume of CO2 being extracted from the atmosphere and locked away again. Trees being cut down and burned/rotting faster than new ones are grown.

That's why wood houses and wood boats are, in a very small way, 'good things'. They take carbon from the atmosphere in the form of wood then lock that wood away in a preserved form.

Obviously above comments ignore the use of epoxy etc. in the manufacture of boats, the fossil fuels consumed moving food, building materials etc around and in generating electricity, the oil derived products incorporated in our tents, clothes, etc..

It's probably safe to argue mankind hasn't been carbon neutral for centuries. It's a very long time since we allowed as many trees to grow as we cut down and burned.

Best we can do is to walk to the head of the river wearing wool and leather with our dug out canoe (created using stone tools) carried on a donkey. Then we paddle or pole it down river living off raw fish caught in the river by hand together with raw roots and berries gathered on the banks sleeping in shelters made of fallen branches.

Not going to happen.

We're all doomed!

Tim.

From: "alopenboat [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:13:11 -0700 (PDT)

Except that rowing/cycling/walking also produces CO2.

[Timmo]

If you can keep her going on solar power alone she sounds ideal. Problem is I need to be forced to do exercise. I could get so fat just lounging there being wafted along in silence by electric power!

Tim.

From: "Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: The Perfect River Raid Boat (PRRB)

I have a feeling that my new, revived, electric Winsome might be a contender as an ideal river raid boat.  

[Jeremy]

It would be pretty easy to add a pedal-powered generator as an on-board exercise machine..............

This would have the added advantage of giving a backup power supply if there are several very overcast days with insufficient sunlight to keep the battery pack topped up.

The trick would be making the pedal generator small enough to pack away when not needed, but that shouldn't be too hard.  For those who would rather not have the solar panels this could be a useful human electric hybrid solution, although there might be a need to either sit and pedal without going anywhere, just to top the batteries up, or maybe pedal harder than needed on the easier bits to get the same effect.  With a battery pack capable of a few hours of non-pedal assisted propulsion it would probably be a pretty flexible solution that would work well in even a fairly small canoe.  The electric only drive could be used to manoeuvre easily without needing to pedal, and go astern if needed, or even just take a breather from time to time.

Overall, a pedal electric hybrid would probably come out somewhere close to the same efficiency as rowing, but with the advantage, like your Mirage drive, of being pedal driven so hands-free.  The motor system I'm now building (the tunnel prop) has an overall efficiency (electric power in to propulsive power out) of about  68% (88% motor and controller efficiency, 78% prop efficiency).  A pedal generator would be about the same efficiency as the motor, around 88%, so the overall pedal to propulsive effort efficiency would be around 60%, which is pretty reasonable and probably better than any other human powered boat propulsion system barring some of the specialist big propeller drive pedal boats, like the ones that Rick Willoughby in Australia has been building (he gets around 80% efficiency with speeds up to about 12mph or more).

Jeremy

[Paul H (admin)]

Jeremy,

The pedal generator and tunnel prop sound very encouraging - the same efficiency as rowing but facing forwards! Can I place the first order?

Electric outboards are very useful in locks. Tony will confirm that lock gates eat oar blades for breakfast so you need to stow the oars asap, whereupon an electric drive will get you in and out of the lock quickly. A means to charge the battery at least enough for lock navigation on cloudy days would be great - if we can get extra mileage that is a bonus.

-Paul

[Paul H (admin)]

Who fancies Bolger's 16ft Gloucester Light Dory as a raid boat?  

Gorgeous sheer line and renowned for seaworthy handling:



I have just received "How to Build the Gloucester Light Dory" by Harold "Dynamite" Payson.

Bolger created the dory as a tender for sharpie he intended to promote, but the dory got far more attention!

-Paul

[Ed-2]

Phil used to say it would be the design that would get him into heaven. Hope he was right. He also said his later 19' version was even better.

Pete G

PS The movie of the Cordless Canoe Challenge is now on www.watercraft-magazine.com  where my intro has been described as Bolger-esque!

On 24 Jun 2011, at 15:28, adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Who fancies Bolger's 16ft Gloucester Light Dory as a raid boat?  

Gorgeous sheer line and renowned for seaworthy handling:



I have just received "How to Build the Gloucester Light Dory" by Harold "Dynamite" Payson.

Bolger created the dory as a tender for sharpie he intended to promote, but the dory got far more attention!

-Paul

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[Port-Na-Storm]

Very nice but quite tippy until they've got half a ton of cod in them.

PS Ed the link you put up to the CCC doesn't seem to be working, it takes you back to the first post in this thread.

[barry o'hara]

And, its the right colour!

Barry

---

From: adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]>
To: bzohara <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 24 June, 2011 15:28:17
Subject: Gloucester Light Dory

Who fancies Bolger's 16ft Gloucester Light Dory as a raid boat?  

Gorgeous sheer line and renowned for seaworthy handling:



I have just received "How to Build the Gloucester Light Dory" by Harold "Dynamite" Payson.

Bolger created the dory as a tender for sharpie he intended to promote, but the dory got far more attention!

-Paul

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[Chris Waite]

When you get to be a really, really old fart you have sore feet from being there, indigestion from producing the recipe then eating the pie and sun damage from it not being a full sleeve T-shirt:



The author with real hair



A sixteen foot one that only went sixteen inches



One that went the full thirty-two feet.

These dories are all absolutely basic in their hull shape.  Their only faults apart from being tender without ballast, is that they have a short waterline length relative to LOD and hard chines spoiling the waterflow under the forefoot.

They were produced like this so that with removable thwarts, they could be stacked on the decks of a Grand Banks schooner.  I cannot remember how to insert a link, but if you try this, there is an image most of the way down the page of a stack of these boats:

http://www.smallartworks.ca/PS/OtherKits/Lunenburg%20Dory%20Model%20Kit/Lunenburg%20Dory%20Model%20Kit.html

Once you no longer need to stack them, you can design out the two faults above by crossing them with a Thames barge, then you get a hull that looks something like this:



For those of you who continue to insist that the transom is too 'high', read the following:

THIS MODEL IS ACTUALLY FOR A BALLASTED TWENTY-FOUR FOOTER; COME ON CHAPS, IF YOU  AREN'T CARRYING THAT MUCH BALLAST, MAKE THE TRANSOM DEEPER, IT'S NOT DIFFICULT:



So that's my 'Premise' and I'm sticking to it

Christodolus the Waffler

[Port-Na-Storm]

And...............................if you then extend the premise until you get the maximum length out of two sheets of ply, ditch the transom in favour of an elegant and hydrodynamic canoe stern, slim her down a bit to reduce resistance, you get something that looks a bit like this.
Ahem, I give you Katie Beardie, The Ideal River Raid Boat.  



And if you are still in any doubt, compare her underwater lines to the incredibly fast King Canute.



Cee Dubs and I will be discussing the final sheer line at a future date with Jig-Saw in hand.

Add a propulsion system which is fuel'd mainly by carbohydrates and beer, which has the ability to go forwards backwards and sometimes sideways, and you can't go far wrong. So you see it really always comes back to the same place.

Oh and P.S. Wasn't Winsome originally conceived as having pedal propulsion, so doesn't a pedal driven electric hybrid kind of over complicate a simple solution?  

[barry o'hara]

What about the Bolger, Gypsy, 15' x 4'

or the Chesapeake Marine Design, Bay Skiff 15, or their Sailng Skiff 15
All of these are similar to the Gloucester dory, with the advantage of a transon, which would increase load carrying capacity, and allow the use of outboards, all have sail plans.

Barry

---

From: adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]>
To: bzohara <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 24 June, 2011 15:28:17
Subject: Gloucester Light Dory

Who fancies Bolger's 16ft Gloucester Light Dory as a raid boat?  

Gorgeous sheer line and renowned for seaworthy handling:



I have just received "How to Build the Gloucester Light Dory" by Harold "Dynamite" Payson.

Bolger created the dory as a tender for sharpie he intended to promote, but the dory got far more attention!

-Paul

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If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

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To unsubscribe from UK HBBR Forum, click here.

[barry o'hara]

Fortunately, I've got a back up solution, the only promlems I have to solve, is, should I use one man power, and have lots of space for all the stuff, or two man power, and reduce the stuff, down to summer wear only, and hope for good weather.

I would also need to arrange for some kind of sail, or outboard, for some well needed rest from paddling, or could I arrange oars, and row it!

Barry

---

From: adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]>
To: bzohara <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 24 June, 2011 15:28:17
Subject: Gloucester Light Dory

Who fancies Bolger's 16ft Gloucester Light Dory as a raid boat?  

Gorgeous sheer line and renowned for seaworthy handling:



I have just received "How to Build the Gloucester Light Dory" by Harold "Dynamite" Payson.

Bolger created the dory as a tender for sharpie he intended to promote, but the dory got far more attention!

-Paul

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/The-Perfect-River-Raid-Boat-PRRB-tp3087587p3104416.html

To unsubscribe from UK HBBR Forum, click here.

[Jeremy]

Port-Na-Storm wrote

Oh and P.S. Wasn't Winsome originally conceived as having pedal propulsion, so doesn't a pedal driven electric hybrid kind of over complicate a simple solution?

Yes, Winsome was originally a pedal design, for two people pedalling in tandem.  Nick Newland (her designer) put a tremendous amount of work into the propulsion system design, getting rid of losses and engineering clever ways to get the power from the pedals to the prop.

The only real problem is draught, as to get good efficiency from a propeller pedal drive with a reasonably practical gear ratio needs a big prop (Winsome has a specially made, very coarse pitch, 12" prop as standard).  This big prop then has to hang under the hull, together with a much larger than needed rudder to provide protection from grounding.  As I have found with my 13" diameter prop drive leg, although very efficient a big prop like this, with it's demand for at least 15 to 18" of water is a blasted nuisance, particularly when launch and recovering.

Many pure pedal boats use retractable or swing up drive systems to get around this draught problem, which is OK but means that you then need to paddle in shallow water, like getting away fro a slip, for example.  The same is true of the Mirage drive, where the flappers need to be up in order to bring the boat ashore.  Although not a big issue it is a bit of a nuisance I think.

Hybrid drive allows the prop rpm to be increased without the need for complex (read big and energy sapping) drive systems.  To get 78% efficiency from my 7 1/2" tunnel prop it needs to turn at around 1100 rpm at 4kts cruise.  Most people are happy pedalling at around 60 to 80 rpm, so to drive this prop mechanically would need a gear ratio of around 1:16 or so.  A pedal bike typically has a highest gear ratio of maybe 1:2.7, so you would need to arrange the equivalent of around three pedal bike chain wheel and sprocket sets in series to get the right sort of ratio, which would be big and incur significant power losses.  A 1:16 gearbox would, perhaps, be smaller, but would have even greater power loss and would no doubt be pretty heavy, too.  Even Winsome, with her big, slow turning, prop needed a gear ratio of around ~1:6 to work OK, arranged as a 1:2 right angle drive preceded by a ~1:3 bike chain drive.

It's hard to put a big diameter prop into a tunnel to reduce draught, as it starts to get close to the hull immersed edge, which then risks causing ventilation.  A smaller prop can work right up at, or slightly above, the waterline inside a tunnel that can be well sealed to minimise the risk of ventilation.  The efficiency penalty from using a small diameter prop turning quite fast is around 5% or so, but against that there is no loss from any reduction drive components, as the electric motors I have will comfortably direct drive at this rpm.

Using another direct drive motor as an alternator, directly driven by the pedals at a low rpm, gets around the need for mechanical gearing altogether, keeping things simpler, smaller and lighter.  The easy way to get a pedal generator is to just use a direct drive electric bike hub motor.  A typical 36V hub motor will produce around 15V when spun at around 80 rpm as a generator, a 48V hub motor would produce 15V at around 60rpm, so either would make a good direct drive pedal generator - simply bolt cranks to the side cases and mount the axle on some form of bracket fixed to the sole.  Efficiency of such a generator would be high at typical pedal power levels of around 80 to 120 watts, probably well over 85%.

Mechanically I think that such a hybrid would be simpler to build, as there would be no need for complex gear or chain drives, and the parts that consume useful cockpit space when not under way could fairly easily be made demountable, and probably small enough to stow in a locker.  This approach also gets rid of potentially messy chains, which would inevitable make something oily.  Having a small battery would give the option of having power available, forward and astern, at the flick of a switch, with no need to pedal.

For me the desire to have a fairly shallow draught, with propulsion being available even in just a few inches of water, seems worth going to the trouble of trying it out.  Whether or not I might add a pedal generator remains to be seen.

Jeremy

[BrianP]

Here's a challenge. Ever since I went to the Turk's auction and saw a Nautilus sailing canoe in the flesh, I have thought about just how perfect a modern epoxy ply version would make a terrific boat for a Upper Thames Raid, a lower Thames Raid and a Solent Raid. The fulsome firm bilged hull form is 100 times better than the kayak hull form of the same aged MacGregor canoe at the same auction.







Baden Powell used the smaller mizzen as a storm mainsail. For the upper Thames Raid propulsion would be double paddle and the mizzen used as mainsail so it can be set quickly and easily.

The problem of storing a mainmast when not in use would be to make the mast from three jointed pieces. My local alloy tube stockist has 1 3/4" tube x 4m and 1 5/8" x 4m tubes at under £30 each. The 16 swg thickness means the smaller tube just slides inside to make the joints. Just a sanding needed to give clearance.

So, I give you a wonderful Raid boat - a modern Nautilus. Why not???

Brian

[Timmo]

All this sounds interesting and, while I do have that niggling doubt about more things to break and go wrong, it also sounds like a good solution to many issues.

Incidentally, you're right that Mirage drive flippers need swinging up against the hull in shallow water but you don't lose al propulsion. Even a short movement up and down against the hull moves the boat along, though not with as much oomph as a full stroke. Also for those of us with dying knees the back and forth motion is a little easier than a round and round pedalling motion. But, Mirage Drives offer no reverse gear and the idea of being able to store energy sounds very useful. Over pedal in the morning, cash in in the afternoon!

How efficiently can a back and forth pedal motion be made to drive the generator. 

Need to check your sums at one point. A hub on a modern bike is rarely driven directly by pedals (that's a very low gear). One turn of the pedals will normally generate between 2 and 5 rotations of the wheels depending on the gear you've chosen and, as you suggest, the average decent cyclist will achieve a cadence (pedal rotation) of around 80rpm so wouldn't the hub generator be expecting more like 320 rpm. Not a speed I can pedal at on a direct drive.

I've obviously misunderstood something!

Tim

From: "Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>

A typical 36V hub motor will produce around 15V when spun at around 80 rpm as a generator, a 48V hub motor would produce 15V at around 60rpm, so either would make a good direct drive pedal generator - simply bolt cranks to the side cases and mount the axle on some form of bracket fixed to the sole.  Efficiency of such a generator would be high at typical pedal power levels of around 80 to 120 watts, probably well over 85%. 

[ChrisC]

Hi Jeremy,

Interesting thoughts on series hybrids - you might already be aware of the work Andreas Fuchs has done with series velomobiles but in case you are not, here is a link:

http://myownhybrid.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/seriesdrivehybridvelomobiles.pdf

I notice that you post on Boatdesign.net and we share an interest in that most obscure and mis-understood device, the Flettner Rotor .  Funnily enough, it was the difficulties inherent in creating a reversing transmission out of bike bits for a pedal-powered rotor that led me to investigate series hybrids in the first place.

Anyway, I am loving your posts which demonstrate that high quality engineering and innovation still goes on in the sheds of the UK.

Chris

[Randonneur]

Whatever happened to the Storer Raid 41? Do you still have her Brian?

[ChrisC]

That is an easy one for me to answer - Brian generously offered me the hull to use on the river on the condition that I didn't use it for sailing, given the concerns he had regarding some aspects of its behaviour.  

It is snugly under cover in my garden and I am slowly turning it in to a river raid/camping boat.  I am constructing a rigid canopy arrangement that will hopefully be both elegant and somewhat more aerodynamic than most such structures and intend to row it Venetian style (two crossed oars, standing up, facing forward with the oar crutches just kept within the beam of the boat).  It should also be quite a good boat for poling and At some point I wish to try a Torqeedo outboard. Progress is slow because I want to do justice to the superb workmanship of Chris Perkins but primarily because I am working in San Diego at the moment.  I like to think we will make an appearance in the 2012 Thames Raid.

[alopenboat]

On 25 Jun 2011 at 21:24, Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> Incidentally, you're right that Mirage drive flippers need swinging up
> against the hull in shallow water but you don't lose al propulsion.
> Even a short movement up and down against the hull moves the boat
> along, though not with as much oomph as a full stroke. Also for those
> of us with dying knees the back and forth motion is a little easier
> than a round and round pedalling motion. But, Mirage Drives offer no
> reverse gear and the idea of being able to store energy sounds very
> useful. Over pedal in the morning, cash in in the afternoon!
>
> How efficiently can a back and forth pedal motion be made to drive the
> generator.

When I was an apprentice a group of us entered a 24 hour pedal car
competition. We had a chain drive from a pedal axle to the rear axle,
but to make the driver change-over quicker we eliminated the need to
adjust the seat position by driving the pedal axle through 2 sprag
clutches.

The result of this was that the pedals reciprocated (as on the Mirage
drive, but also they were not directly linked together so they could
be operated 180 degrees out of phase, like the Mirage, or 90 degrees
out of phase or, for rapid acceleration, in phase. It was also
possible to rest one leg and just operate with one pedal. The length
of the stroke was also adjustable to whatever was comfortable at the
time.

Mechanically it was successful, unfortunately none of the drivers was
up to it :-(

A similar system could work for a dynamo with a suitable flywheel on
the axle to keep it running smoothly.

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

[Jeremy]

Timmo wrote

Need to check your sums at one point. A hub on a modern bike is rarely
driven directly by pedals (that's a very low gear). One turn of the pedals
will normally generate between 2 and 5 rotations of the wheels depending on
the gear you've chosen and, as you suggest, the average decent cyclist will
achieve a cadence (pedal rotation) of around 80rpm so wouldn't the hub
generator be expecting more like 320 rpm. Not a speed I can pedal at on a
direct drive.

I've obviously misunderstood something!

Tim

Bike gearing doesn't usually go as tall as 1:5, AFAIK.  The biggest chain rings are usually around 50 to 55 teeth and the smallest rear sprockets are usually around 18 teeth, so the best you're likely to get is a ratio of around 1:3, and even that is pretty tall, most probably only used by really fit racing types.  Most bikes seem to have something like a 44 or 48 tooth chain ring, so are probably geared to around 1:2.4 to 1:2.7 at best.

I was thinking of directly coupling a hub motor to a set of pedals, with no gears or messy chains.  This would mean driving it directly at around 60 to 80 rpm hence the figures I quoted.  80 rpm on a hub designed to run at 36V in a 26" wheel is around 14.8V (194 rpm = 15mph, which is the legal maximum speed for an electric bike).  This is about right for charging a 12V battery.  Using a 48V hub motor allows a bit of a better margin, as at 60 rpm it would deliver around 14.8V and at 80 rpm would deliver around 19.8V.