The Perfect River Raid Boat (PRRB)

[Randonneur]

Forward facing, live aboard with all creature comforts?

It's got to be Escargot!

http://thistinyhouse.com/2012/pedal-powered-shanty-boat/

[Timmo]

She is fascinating. Not so easy to lift out and portage past a long flight of locks, but she is big enough to fit the shower my wife insists on before she overnights anywhere.

Tim.

On 15 Aug 2013, at 12:18, Randonneur [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Forward facing, live aboard with all creature comforts?

It's got to be Escargot!

http://thistinyhouse.com/2012/pedal-powered-shanty-boat/

[Jeremy]

One thought I had to overcome the "long boats are nice, but hard to store at home" problem was to divide the boat into three bits, rather than just two, as CW has done with Octavia.  The snags with having a boat in two halves are as already mentioned, the central joint needs to be pretty strong and hence adds weight, plus for a raid boat having a central bulkhead is problem if you want to sleep aboard.

If you make a 7 or 8ft long central section, with just a couple of 3 or 4ft pointy ends that detach, then the structural problems are far simpler (less bending stress on the joints) plus you gain a big open area in the centre of the boat, where it's most useful.

I did (very briefly) look at doing this with the Duck Punt (here: http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/Anyone-want-Aero-tp3403720p3887011.html), as it so happens that this approach works well with that shape of boat.  An added advantage was that the two ends would stow inside the open centre section, so less storage space in the garage would be taken up.

I am still intrigued by the idea of a boat in three parts, and may come back to it when we've finished building the new house (loads of excitement today, had a drilling rig on site drilling out water supply borehole).

[BrianP]

Quite interesting concept of a SOF sailing pram with Mirage Drive. Some ideas could be applied to a longer, narrower, but still lightweight raid design.


http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?165808-7-9-SOF-sailing-pram-with-Mirage-drive

Brian

[Chris Waite]

Bloop! And just like that, I’m at it again

On the subject of bitty-boats Jeremy, I have found with ‘Octavia’ that there are other disadvantages apart from the extra weight.  She is car toppable – but only when made up, that is with the two ends fixed together and easiest upside down.  At that point it is just possible to lift each conjoined end in turn to get her sixteen feet loaded, or unloaded.  She would need to be upright if I wanted to slide her on, which would involve a cradle on the rack and anyway, there isn’t room to get at the ends of the vehicle in our diminutive forecourt.

The small car has to be moved out of the way, which means finding it a parking space on the street; then manoeuvring ‘Octavia’s two halves out of the garage, putting them together right way up, on cushions to avoid scratching the hull and fitting the ladder-racks to the car.  Then the boat needs to be turned upside down and with a carpet over the back of the car roof for mutual protection, her stern lifted onto the rack.  The bow goes up second and she can then be slid aft and tied down.  At the launch site, I have to find a space with a car-and-a-half empty next to it and reverse the process, plus fitting her outriggers and seats and other such.

At the end of the day, having spent the outing looking backwards and bumping into things as some oarsmen do, the whole process has to be repeated.  It starts to turn from a picnic into an ordeal.

I had considered a pram dinghy with a single, short, pointy-ended, store-insidey bit that would bolt onto the transom, turning it from a short, rowing tender-type in one direction to a sailing stem-dinghy in the other.  Accommodation in the pram and stowage in the point.  I even wondered if it was only six foot or so long, I could pretend to Southern Rail that it was just a large suitcase.

The next thing I can only admit is that each boat I build seems like a good idea at the time, but at its incarnation is just too heavy to be easily handled ashore for my flagging physique.

How much trouble good ideas can get you into.

So, where was I?  PeRRB’s

It’s not so much the actual type of hull, as it’s dimensions; my mind is firmly stuck in ‘Premise’ mode for it’s simplicity, so that’s my choice.  You lap your strakes if you want to, this old goat’s not for straking.  This time a ‘Fifteen’ I think; short enough to go in the garage and light enough to lift onto a car.  

Please

I’ve chosen the name already – ‘Curvy Mabel’

You mean to tell me you don’t know the ditty of Curvy Mabel?

He drank with Curvy Mabel
The pace was fast and furious
He slipped beneath the table
Not drunk, but merely curious

I have had to change one or two of the words of course:

Afloat in ‘Curvy Mabel’
The raid was fast and furious
And though she seemed quite able
Her shape was somewhat curious

Imagine a rowing boat with Pedyuloh pretentions, a cross between a flatter ‘Polly Wee’ and a onesie-‘Octavia’:

 

Complete with canoe stem, flat bottom and possibly even wineglass transom.  15 feet LOA; 44 inches beam.  A shortish, (hopefully fixed) rudder, with the yuloh mounted on the stock.  I’d try and avoid a centreplate, though a small one right up forward might prove necessary to prevent the bow blowing off in a head wind.  I also reckon Graham is on the right track deploying a golf umbrella for those rare and beautiful moments

Of wind round the willows

Dream on Chris Waite

[Timmo]

Sounds excellent. Want to see the model! Start the paper, scissors and tape bit.

Does she get the wineglass transom? Recently rescued a plie of what I think must be Utile that had been a very expensive trendy 70's staircase that had just been evicted in favour of a more retro oak staircase more in keeping with the victorian cottage it occupied. Point being I'd happily donate a few bits sufficient for a transom in return for the pleasure of following it for a day or so down a river. Was always Octavia's very best side (though she looks good from every angle!)

Tim.

On 29 Sep 2013, at 13:12, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Imagine a rowing boat with Pedyuloh pretentions, a cross between a flatter ‘Polly Wee’ and a onesie-‘Octavia’: 

[Port-Na-Storm]

Octavia and Polly Wee's cousin Katie comes in at a tad over 15ft long without the rudder, and exactly 3ft across the beam. Anyhow its a lot of boat to get on the roof single-handed, she needs all the space around the boat Octavia does, and its much easier with an accomplice.
I have done it using her upturned trolley above the tailgate as a roller and that works quite well but it does mean she has to be right way up.
Phil O seems to manage OK getting his prospector on the roof of his VW Van using a roller on the rear roof bar.
These guys seem to have it sorted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Q_8lliuv0

I just know you'll make your own.  

[Chris Waite]

I'll bet he has an outboard to go with his electric winches

And shortly after that, a beer-gut.  There has to be a happy medium somewhere between bone-idle

And back-break

CW

[Paul H (admin)]

Will 'Curvy Mabel' be a live-aboard?

-Paul

[BrianP]

Who could resist "Curvy Mabel", who amongst us would dare to tell our other half's that we were off for the week with CM...

Just one wish, that she can be drawn to accommodate the Mirage Drive, please. I have a Mirage Drive, a moulded housing and a moulding set to make more housings which can be supplied to Curvy's creator if he be willing.

It's looking increasing like this sitting still, head forward, no up and down looking at sails, is the only way I will ever get on the water again.

A pal bought a Hobie Adventure Island and watching him at Keyhaven coming into the beach is amazing. He is so comfortable, threads his little tri through the mooring with no bother as he motorsails along, sailing as high as he likes, rolls the little sail up, quietly pedals to the shore and the fins lift up horizontal and he's on the beach in complete control and comfort.

On the 44" wide hull. My Shearwater sailing canoe was 40" wide and she only just fitted upside down on the bars of the Karitek roof rack on my small saloon car. Guess extenders could be added but they might be sticking out from the side of the car, and a bit dangerous to passers by. Quick check of roof rack widths might be in order?

Brian

[Chris Waite]

So Paulie and Brian

Firstly, as I have given up my days of racing dinghies in favour of cruisi-raiding, any boat I design is with campability in mind, so yes she'd have a live-aboard facility.

Next, Brian - the Mirage Drive would go in like unto a hand slipping down a glove.  Seriously, and at the risk of repeating myself ad-(other peoples')-nauseam, the Premise is just that - a simple, flat-bottom shape with the chines softened forward to ease the flow of water under the bow and any old transom that appeals to you, similarly the outline of the stem.  These parameters flow from each end into the hull cross section at maximum beam, which itself is reminiscent of a 'vertically-challenged' flowerpot cut in half:



You should bear in mind that the more vertical the ends the greater the potential displacement hull speed and that is important as not many of us spend much time planing, seniority creeping upon us as it does.  To that end, but also the requirement to be able to go round corners, I recommend a vertical stem with a well rounded forefoot and not more than about twenty degrees of rake on the transom.

After that the dimensions are the most moveable feast imaginable.  You tell me the length, beam and general 'air' plus underwater draft you are looking for and I'll knock you up some plans and/or a model.

Taking my previously mentioned limitations and Graham's comments above into account, 'Curvy Mabel' will likely have fifteen foot by sixteen inch sides, bringing her out about fourteen foot six inches LOA.  Why sixteen inches?  Well she'd have a thirty two inch floor at maximum beam and when I was at school, 32 + 16 equalled 48 - the number of inches across a sheet of ply, so three sheets should do it and even leave a few bits over for the fine details

Any good?

Christo W  

[BrianP]

sound good to me Chris.

Realised with a flat bottom she will sit upright on the roofrack, so 32" is fine and flair above that anything you like. Much easier to load with no turning over required.

Tim is the expert here on all things Mirage, plus armrests, sleeping aboard with a mirage housing in the way and lovely curvy seats.

Question for Tim, the Mirage fins, I think go up to horizontal when set for beach landing. Does that mean the hull needs to be a broad V shape so the hull is out of the way or is a flat hull ok? If flat hull not ok, then pedal driven yuloh it has to be.

Brian

[Timmo]

Takes a bit of care to get the Mirage Drive mount to sit the pivot at the optumum distance just below the hull for the fins to fold flat against the hull. Once there it makes little difference if the hul is flat of V shaped. They are still proud of the hull and therefore potentially at risk of catching on something but in practice they seem to shrug off any impact they do experience. I use the keel to protect the actual pivot.

If you are concerned that the fins might be damaged it's still easy (if the drive is held in place by an appropriate system) to simply lift it from its housing.

Sleeping means either designing the boat with sufficiant length for sleeping fore or aft of the drive case or raising the sleeping platform above the case. I opted for floor level behind the case but that has mean't some ingenuity to create a seat that can be removed and tucked away while sleeping.

Tim.

On 2 Oct 2013, at 16:04, BrianP [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

sound good to me Chris.

Realised with a flat bottom she will sit upright on the roofrack, so 32" is fine and flair above that anything you like. Much easier to load with no turning over required.

Tim is the expert here on all things Mirage, plus armrests, sleeping aboard with a mirage housing in the way and lovely curvy seats.

Question for Tim, the Mirage fins, I think go up to horizontal when set for beach landing. Does that mean the hull needs to be a broad V shape so the hull is out of the way or is a flat hull ok? If flat hull not ok, then pedal driven yuloh it has to be.

Brian

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[Chris Waite]

TimmO, I've just realized

I did not respond to your message several replies back.

'Curvy Mabel's cardboard cut-out will be along just as soon as life stops wafting in the opposite direction in great crashing breakers - you know the sort of thing.

Next, thanks for the offer of your Utile; a terrible pun about utilizing it lurks in there somewhere....

Well, it would, wooden tit?

CW

(Incidentally, what is the beam on 'Zelva'?  Us rank amateurs like to reassure ourselves we're not too far off the mark and I'd like to be reasonably certain that I spend nights afloat sleeping, not swimming.)

[Timmo]

Not to have found the puns would have been going against the grain (sorry, best I can manage, been a bad week!)

Zelva's beam, according to the offsets (and she's fairly close) 101 cm at widest point (station 5 of 9, mid point.) that's about 3'4" in older money. More luck than judgment since my degree of amateurism far exceeds yours but it seems to work. Length to go with it is 5 m (just under 16.5') with virtually plumb stem and stern so that's also pretty much waterline length as well. 

I doubt dropping back waterline length to 15' or so to save scarphing more bits for the planking will make much difference to how she goes, but those who understand the wetted surface/length calcs that come up with a theoretical hull speed will do a better job of understanding that than I.

Staying afloat overnight I have found owes more to keeping seams watertight than to breadth! Thank the stars for gaffer tape and good friends with marine sealant tucked in their lockers.

Hope the breakers ease soon. Know it's tough. Lots of sympathy, but know that doesn't help much.

Look forward to model in due course, it's appearance will be a signal of better times for you.

Tim.

On 3 Oct 2013, at 07:20, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

'Curvy Mabel's cardboard cut-out will be along just as soon as life stops wafting in the opposite direction in great crashing breakers - you know the sort of thing.

Next, thanks for the offer of your Utile; a terrible pun about utilizing it lurks in there somewhere....

(Incidentally, what is the beam on 'Zelva'?  Us rank amateurs like to reassure ourselves we're not too far off the mark and I'd like to be reasonably certain that I spend nights afloat sleeping, not swimming.)

[Chris Waite]

It rather seems

That my comment on Great Crashing Breakers has caused a little concern.  In which case I would like to apologize to any of those who may have been at a certain camp fire during the DCA Cobnor Week.

I cannot deny that with the assistance of Stella, daughter of Mr and Mrs Sauvignon-Blanc, whom I met later the same evening, I became a little tired and emotional and seem to recall expressing the odd opinion on the NHS management and possibly one or two other aspects that have since escaped my soaked and soggy cerebrum.

I wish to report that I am since entirely rested and just as rambunctious as ever, with but a mere couple of family members as my entire patient list.  Once I've tucked them up, I'll get out that cardboard.

Me, mix my drinks?

CW

[John P]

Jeremy wrote

One thought I had to overcome the "long boats are nice, but hard to store at home" problem was to divide the boat into three bits, rather than just two, as CW has done with Octavia.  The snags with having a boat in two halves are as already mentioned, the central joint needs to be pretty strong and hence adds weight, plus for a raid boat having a central bulkhead is problem if you want to sleep aboard.

If you make a 7 or 8ft long central section, with just a couple of 3 or 4ft pointy ends that detach, then the structural problems are far simpler (less bending stress on the joints) plus you gain a big open area in the centre of the boat, where it's most useful.
<snip>

It does seem that it might be harder to make an adequately strong joint in the middle of a long thin boat than to make two joints that are nearer the ends. Also, as you say, a bulkhead where a joint is made towards the end of the boat may well be less of an awkward obstruction than one amidships. With this in mind, I thought I would post a couple of pictures of a very nice rowboat designed and made some years ago by DCA member Peter Glover.  Peter used to have one of those ubiquitous white vans. He couldn't get the full length of this boat in the back of the van, but he only had to remove a few feet from the stern to get it in, so he made a single joint that was aft of amidships. The joint is so well made that you cant actually see it in the pictures below. For storage on shore the small stern section easily fitted inside the main part of the boat.

John Perry

[Randonneur]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:46 AM, John P [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jeremy wrote

One thought I had to overcome the "long boats are nice, but hard to store at home" problem was to divide the boat into three bits, rather than just two,

Or just make it deflatable like this!

http://www.watertribe.com/magazine/y2003/m08/mattlayden.aspx

[John P]

Interesting that Matt Layden has purchased a blow up canoe. He seems to have followed the same logic that I did when looking for a simpler kind of boat that would be easier to transport by land. Matt seems quite happy with his choice, so far at least, whereas I feel that it is not really the answer after all and I am now thinking that we would do better with something made of plywood after all.

Although Josephine and myself have found our 15foot sailing dinghy to be a very versatile boat the fact is that it is too heavy to launch from our local beach and if we go for a holiday which is basically a motoring holiday rather a sailing holiday, we don't want to have to road trail the heavy dinghy just on the offchance that we might occasionally like to use it for an afternoon afloat. With that in mind, I purchased a blow up canoe about three years ago, but actually we haven't used it much and I think that a lightweight ridged canoe or rowboat would serve our requirement better.  Our blow up canoe is larger than Matt's one since we wanted it to carry two persons, but like Matt's one it is a heavy duty model with three layers of fabric keeping out the sea - first an inflateable bladder, then a strong 'sock' that contains the bladder, then the heavy fabric that keeps the sea out of the boat. It has an inflateable floor just like Matt's boat has.  

The first thing to note about a quality blow up canoe is that it is not actually a particularly light boat - the triple layers of heavy fabric add up to plenty of weight. I think I could make a somewhat lighter boat of similar size in stitch and glue plywood.   Next disadvantage is that it is not all that quick to unpack from the car and get afloat. Not only do you have to pump it up, there are quite a few separate bits to assemble as well.  It would be far quicker to just lift a lightweight ridged boat off the car roof rack and drop it in the water. As for putting it away, the problem is that you are supposed to wash out sand etc. then dry it before you store it. We have always done that, but it is probably at least an hours work each time because sand and gravel get everywhere between the layers of fabric, it would be just so much easier to hose out a ridged boat and indeed, with a ridged boat such as a plastic canoe you don't even need to do that very often.  As for carrying it on an aircraft, I suppose you just about could do that whereas a ridged boat you could not, but even so it would be a massive awkward package to handle around an airport terminal. It takes up a large part of the space in the back of our small hatchback car, so if we take it with us car camping the car is pretty well full to the brim by the time we add our camping equipment as well. A light boat on a roof rack would leave the inside of the car free for our other luggage.

Sorry, long post, I just wanted to point out that inflatable canoes are not quite as handy as you might at first think - I am sketching a light plywood rowboat right now!

John
 

[Chris Waite]

It rather seems

That the old West Sussex cardboard mines are worked out and as I don't want the Antifrackers of Balcombe camped out in the courtyard here while I source some more locally, I shall have to go further afield for the necessary supplies to produce the model of 'Curvy Mabel'.  Thereby hangs a delay

And on the subject of perfect designs John, there has been a suggestion from across the Channel (hasn't there, Eric17) that you and I between us, would produce the ultimate option.

That of course is for others to decide, but I'll show you mine

If you show me yours

CW