Wouldn't it be luggerly?

[Chris Waite]

If you want to talk lug, I'm up for it

So there are the French with their Savoir faire (to know [what] to do) and Je ne sais quoi (I don’t know what) using their dipping misains as mains and leaving them standing and all.  And young Phil, if you consider that sail on Saint Budog to be ‘setting nicely’:



Then I dread to think what you consider a badly set sail might look like; from the picture it looks as if the luff is slack, causing all those wrinkles, which can in part be an effect of the sail being draped against the mast….    having not been dipped.  The foot actually seems quite taught, as it is also held kinked against the mast by wind pressure.

The head has been insufficiently stretched along the yard and the throat is not in line with the rest of the lacing, aggravating the lack of draft though the centre of the sail, giving the after part the appearance of slacking away except where the tension in the leach seam itself is causing it to curl up to windward.

Finally, the tension in the seams between the panels is causing each to form its own little bulge, particularly toward the peak.  Oh, and; the clew is also a mass of radiating creases.

It’s a mess

No, better than that, it’s a shambles and it shows absolutely why even a standing lug sets better when dipped leaving it to leeward of the mast:


 
As David Bewick has confirmed, while a boomless lug is convenient for messing about swapping forms of propulsion, it is not as effective as a boomed sail when it comes to out and out performance.  Particularly off the wind the sail starts to collapse, ballooning out and requiring a bearing out spar (for that is the correct term) to hold it flat, even if a notched oar will do.  Oars are actually rather heavy for this purpose, but anything to hand in a small dinghy.

Boo-boom!

Opinionatus

[Paul H (admin)]

Compared to the windsurfing sails I used almost 30 years ago (5 tapered battens as curvy as Concord, 6:1 downhaul to lock the centre of effort mid ships, as tight as a drum, a definitive crack sound after tacking) that first sail looks prehistoric.
 
There again we were in our 20s pushing 20 knots. ...so it's all about fit for purpose I guess.

Paul

[Timmo]

Thanks Chris.

Words of wisdom. Boom's back in contention!

Tim.

On 15 Jun 2015, at 21:44, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you want to talk lug, I'm up for it

So there are the French with their Savoir faire (to know what to do) and Je ne sais quoi (I don’t know what) using their dipping misains as mains and leaving them standing and all.  And young Phil, if you consider that sail on Saint Budog to be ‘setting nicely’:



Then I dread to think what you consider a badly set sail to look like; from the picture it looks as if the luff is slack, causing all those wrinkles, which can in part be an effect of the sail being draped against the mast….    having not been dipped.  The the foot actually seems quite taught, as it is also held kinked against the mast by wind pressure.

The head has been insufficiently stretched along the yard and the throat is not in line with the rest of the lacing, aggravating the lack of flow though the centre of the sail, giving the after part the appearance of slacking away except where the tension in the leach seam itself is causing it to curl up to windward.

Finally, the tension in the seams between the panels is causing each to form its own little bulge, particularly toward the peak.  Oh, and; the clew is also a mass of radiating creases.

It’s a mess

No, better than that, it’s a shambles and it shows absolutely why even a standing lug sets better when dipped:


 
As David Bewick has confirmed, while a boomless lug is convenient for messing about swapping forms of propulsion, it is not as effective as a boomed sail when it comes to out and out performance.  Particularly off the wind the sail starts to collapse, ballooning out and requiring a bearing out spar (for that is the correct term) to hold it flat, even if a notched oar will do.  Oars are actually rather heavy for this purpose, but anything to hand in a small dinghy.

Boo-boom!

Opinionatus

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[philoxuk]

No Chris, I don't - I was being ironic! I winced when I saw it, & on recent form I reckoned you would have an opinion to offer.... seems I was right.....

I suspect things would look a fair bit better overall without the line from the tip of the yard to the stemhead keeping the luff slack & the peak artificially high.

Phil.

[Chris Waite]

That is a relief Phil; some irony is just what it needs

But hold the 'y'; or preferably take it out behind a sand dune and feed it to the polyestermites, or bole weevils, or anything that is prepared to consume it.  I wasn't sure about that line ahead of the luff myself.  I've come across a few tackles in similar-ish places to do things like stopping the end of the yard diving through the foredeck, (Roxane??); or helping with dipping, but our cross-channel neighbours don't indulge in any vang so ordinaire.  Then there are brails for boomless sails, but none of these are quite in that position.

The somewhat crumpled appearance at the luff is inevitable in a (lug) sail that is leaning against the mast and the least attractive aspect of the 'other' tack on a balance lug, where the sail is always set to one side of the mast.  Though if anyone tells you they can detect a difference in performance between the two tacks:

  

As I've mentioned in the past, they're either an Olympian helmsman, or a liar.

TimmO wrote - "Oar sounds heavy, but saves lugging an extra spar around.  Misainier rig is starting to look more interesting."

But Nota exceptionally Bene Dave Bewick's comment - "It [the misainier] goes really on the wind or on a reach but running and gybing can be ‘fun’!”

There is a very good reason for his observation.  This is a four cornered sail that is only attached to something solid at three of them and (without a boom), this leaves the fourth corner free to take advantage.

As far as the sail is concerned, ‘advantage’ in this case means blowing into a powerfully cavernous fold, egged on by the bottom edge, the ‘foot’.  Running down wind the clew is still held back aft by the main sheet, but there is nothing to prevent the peak blowing off ahead of the mast, which it tends to do in anything of a breeze.  Here is a chum of mine sailing a boomless, standing lug double-ender I used to own, into Emsworth and even without white caps, you can see the marked twist in the sail and the preparatory crouching-panic pose of the helmsman.  Compare that with the boomed Polly Wee, where the sail remains flat and only the helmsman's face shows any sign of panic:

 
 
The peak is in more ‘air’ up there and on the boomless Pagan being blown forward of the masthead, is actually trying to push the boat over to windward; the resulting pressure in different directions on the upper and lower halves of the twisted sail induces an oscillation - the dreaded ‘death roll’. This rapidly heels the boat back and forth and soon, away from the sail and toward the now terrified helmsman that if he is not quick enough, it will dump him backwards into the water.

The official answer to this is to haul aft on the main sheet, but without a boom this brings the leach up to wind enough that when even an intended gybe actually takes place, the sheet cannot run out sufficiently fast to absorb the sudden change in sail pressure from one side to the other and again, the helmsman is in for a swim.

This situation is aggravated by the swash-buckling inclination of certain DCA presidents and French followers of the vieux greement.  Both parties have a penchant for those wooden thumb fittings inside the gunwales at the quarters and a short strop on the mainsheet block, which is manhandled from one hook to the other on changing tack; or gybe.

Can you imagine trying to gybe single-handed, in a fresh breeze and manipulating the tiller with your knees, watching where you’re going and hanging onto a thrashing mainsheet tackle while transferring it across the boat….

And what happens if it rips itself out of your cramped fingers and the whole sail rips round and flogs off downwind over the bow?  Oh, great!

That would buckle my swash for at least a few minutes.

Bloody nonsense

The thing is that a sail is just an aerofoil, but soft and therefore needs to be held in some tension to act to best advantage.  As the wind-speed increases so the canvas needs be kept flatter, which requires increasing tension.  Inability to effect this, by having a loose end, or in this case wayward clew, is asking for trouble, as the sail will be struggling to assume the properties of a bag as opposed to a blade.

Just when you really rather wish it wouldn’t

Control that carousing clew

Get a boom

Dippy Luglover

[Timmo]

Wise words Chris, beautifully illustrated.

You're confirming the fears I have about loose foot mains. Used to sail Drascombe longboats that had loose foot gunter arrangements and for such a big stable boat they were very uncomfortable off the wind. Fortunately we were well ballasted with children (was a watersports centre) and if they all lay on the floorboards (on top of each other) it stabilised the boat wonderfully. Surprisingly they thought it added to the fun and would throw themselves down on command with great glee. 

I'm increasingly leaning back toward the balanced lug. But a good many months off any actions that make a decision final.

Tim.

On 16 Jun 2015, at 21:24, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Control that carousing clew

Get a boom

Dippy Luglover

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[John P]

Have you thought of a wishbone boom. The wishbone boom would extend from somewhere part way up the mast and would slope from there down to the mainsail clew. I have seen something like that on the Swallow boats, but I think they use a straight pole, a pole curved like one half of a windsurfer boom would probably be better (and more elegant and more fun to make). No need to have both halves of the wishbone since you will not be hanging off it like windsurfers do.

A wishbone boom would give you the advantage of a normal boom in that it would hold down the clew of the mainsail but it would not hit your head like a normal boom can do, at least it would not as long as the aft end of it is sufficiently far aft of where your head is likely to be.
 

[Timmo]

Thanks John. Intriguing thought. Not least because my mind is now engaged with what's involved in making a substantially curved birdsmouth laminated spar!

I do have a thick head and a good instinct for keeping it out of the way of a swinging boom. The (dwindling) attraction of the loose foot misainier rig was the speed with which you could brail it up out of the way. It's quick to drop a lug sail, but you then have to work round it in the boat. Not sure if a curved boom would increase that problem. Still, it's a bigger boat than I've had for a while so there will probably be enough room to get things done even with the rig down.

How easy is reefing with a spar going at an angle down to the clew?

But that curved birdsmouth spar. Gentle curve is easy (has anyone made a birdsmouth yuloh? ) but how tight a radius would be possible?

Tim

On 17 Jun 2015, at 20:50, John P [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Have you thought of a wishbone boom. The wishbone boom would extend from somewhere part way up the mast and would slope from there down to the mainsail clew. I have seen something like that on the Swallow boats, but I think they use a straight pole, a pole curved like one half of a windsurfer boom would probably be better (and more elegant and more fun to make). No need to have both halves of the wishbone since you will not be hanging off it like windsurfers do.

A wishbone boom would give you the advantage of a normal boom in that it would hold down the clew of the mainsail but it would not hit your head like a normal boom can do, at least it would not as long as the aft end of it is sufficiently far aft of where your head is likely to be.
 

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[David Bewick]

Tim,

Have you seen the tread on the Woodenboat forum about an Ilur in Vermont?  This covers an awful lot of ground on the rig options for this design.  The boat in question is a lug yawl but with a sprit boom arrangement on the main (very American, but in a good way!).

The crunch point for you will be when you have to decide where to put the mast.  In the mean time, you will have plenty to get on with while you continue to cogitate.

Best regards,

David.

PS.  I used the balanced lug sloop on Aberrare at the w/e whilst racing with the OGA on the Helford.  It went really well (3rd in Class) but I would still use the misainier rig if I was doing a sail and oar trip.

[Timmo]

Hi David

Yes, browsing that Ilur in Vermont site helped clinch the decision to build one. He certainly went for quality on some of the details. Something to aspire to.

I'm currently not thinking of the full sloop rig. The extra performance would be welcome occasionally (in light airs particularly I guess,) but this will be a boat for family and visitors as much as for me so the simplicity of a single sail and the mast well forward does appeal. So decision is misainier versus balanced lug. Browsing the plans the only difference I can see is the boom and the sail. If that's so for the price of the extra sail I could have both! But I'll start with one.

Am impressed with Vivier's plans (the set for the kit version) on first glance. A lot of detail nicely presented. Will no doubt find any frustrating gaps when I eventually engage with actually building it.

Tim

On 18 Jun 2015, at 10:01, David Bewick [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tim,

Have you seen the tread on the Woodenboat forum about an Ilur in Vermont?  This covers an awful lot of ground on the rig options for this design.  The boat in question is a lug yawl but with a sprit boom arrangement on the main (very American, but in a good way!).

The crunch point for you will be when you have to decide where to put the mast.  In the mean time, you will have plenty to get on with while you continue to cogitate.

Best regards,

David.

PS.  I used the balanced lug sloop on Aberrare at the w/e whilst racing with the OGA on the Helford.  It went really well (3rd in Class) but I would still use the misainier rig if I was doing a sail and oar trip.

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[Chris Waite]

Ooh – goody; a discussion!

TimmO is right John; trying to reef sail with a wishbone boom is about as time consuming as the same manoeuvre on a sprit rig.  It’s technically possible, but even if you start on the beach, in Spring, Autumn is likely to have arrived before you get it sorted.  Reminds me of Billy Connelly’s comment on Scottish weather – “There’s Winter and June”, or was it - "June and Winter"?

The other two things in relation to a wishbone boom, particularly a one sided one, are firstly that it will forever spend its time trying to obey the laws of gravity and rotate until it is bowed downwards, not sideways.  Even if you can prevent this, it would create an appreciable tendency to chafe.  Having said that a straight boom would not mis-shape the sail any more than having it lying against the mast on one tack, as in the Misainier and balance lugs.

Secondly, such wishbone booms and even a straight equivalent, rely on being attached to the mast somewhere within the length of the luff.  One of the main features of the lug is that the luff is free-standing and ahead of the mast in this area, so even if you attached it to the mast any question of ‘dipping’, for instance, would be out of the window.

Curved bird’s mouth spar, eh TimmO; that’s a sort of wader’s beak, yes?



Brailing a sail seems like the answer to a prayer, doesn’t it?  It works very well on half a ton of flax, but not so tremendously on a few ounces of terylene:

 

Once again (damn-it), this old goat lays claim to the T-shirt.  Brailing up a barge main is a standard part of working the vessel, though even that can be a struggle:



And Aeolus ensures that once he is out and about he gets into the folds of light, man-made fibres particularly between the brail and the peak, blows them into an elliptical balloon then shakes them about like a terrier with a rat, until the whole dinghy is squirming around in discomfort.  If you look at the photograph of Pagan above, you will see that the sail is in mid-flog anyway and by this time of ownership, I had given up using the brail, which is also just visible (a white line), waving around horizontally, between the throat and the leach.

If you do choose to go the boomless route, then I eventually found the best way to furl such a sail, while leaving it standing, is to have a short toggled strop between the mainsheet block and the clew.  If you undo this, you can roll the sail from the leach toward the mast, while holding it in tension.  The resulting furl is really neat and can be tied with a sail tie round itself (and the mast if desired) then the God of the wind cannot get his gusty breath in there to create any mischief.  I’m disappointed that I do not have a picture of this, but let me assure you that it keeps all things calm and clear.

My own answer allowing for the balance lug, with its boom, is a very simple topping lift-cum-lazyjack system that gathers the sail as it is lowered, (though if you drop it going downwind the sail does have a slight inclination to cling lovingly to the lee topping lift).  It then allows the bundle to be hoisted horizontally, just above sitting head height….

For living and rowing

And such

CGW  

[Timmo]

Good to read you on form Chris... waders beak!

You're making a very persuasive case for the Balanced lug.

Thanks to all for contributions. Keep them coming. Any lurkers yet to add their pennyworth?

Tim.

On 18 Jun 2015, at 12:27, Chris Waite [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ooh – goody; a discussion!

TimmO is right John; trying to reef sail with a wishbone boom is about as time consuming as the same manoeuvre on a sprit rig.  It’s technically possible, but even if you start on the beach, in Spring, Autumn is likely to have arrived before you get it sorted.  Reminds me of Billy Connelly’s comment on Scottish weather – “There’s Winter and June”, or was it - "June and Winter"?

The other two things in relation to a wishbone boom, particularly a one sided one, are firstly that it will forever spend its time trying to obey the laws of gravity and rotate until it is bowed downwards, not sideways.  Even if you can prevent this, it would create an appreciable tendency to chafe.  Having said that a straight boom would not mis-shape the sail any more than having it lying against the mast on one tack, as in the Misainier and balance lugs.

Secondly, such wishbone booms and even a straight equivalent, rely on being attached to the mast somewhere within the length of the luff.  One of the main features of the lug is that the luff is free-standing and ahead of the mast in this area, so even if you attached it to the mast any question of ‘dipping’, for instance, would be out of the window.

Curved bird’s mouth spar, eh TimmO; that’s a sort of wader’s beak, yes?



Brailing a sail seems like the answer to a prayer, doesn’t it?  It works very well on half a ton of flax, but not so tremendously on a few ounces of terylene:

 

Once again (damn-it), this old goat lays claim to the T-shirt.  Brailing up a barge main is a standard part of working the vessel, though even that can be a struggle:



And Aeolus ensures that once he is out and about he gets into the folds of light, man-made fibres particularly between the brail and the peak, blows them into an elliptical balloon then shakes them about like a terrier with a rat, until the whole dinghy is squirming around in discomfort.  If you look at the photograph of Pagan above, you will see that the sail is in mid-flog anyway and by this time of ownership, I had given up using the brail, which is also just visible (a white line), waving around horizontally, between the throat and the leach.

If you do choose to go the boomless route, then I eventually found the best way to furl such a sail, while leaving it standing, is to have a short toggled strop between the mainsheet block and the clew.  If you undo this, you can roll the sail from the leach toward the mast, while holding it in tension.  The resulting furl is really neat and can be tied with a sail tie round itself (and the mast if desired) then the God of the wind cannot get his gusty breath in there to create any mischief.  I’m disappointed that I do not have a picture of this, but let me assure you that it keeps all things calm and clear.

My own answer allowing for the balance lug, with its boom, is a very simple topping lift-cum-lazyjack system that gathers the sail as it is lowered, (though if you drop it going downwind the sail does have a slight inclination to cling lovingly to the lee topping lift).  It then allows the bundle to be hoisted horizontally, just above sitting head height….

For living and rowing

And such

CGW  

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[John P]

Re the wishbone boom, picture shows one on a slightly larger boat, actually this is also a home built boat, but not of a style normally discussed in this forum. I think this one is curved like half a windsurfer boom, although that does not show with the angle the picture is taken from. As indicated by this picture, reef points are possible, but a dipping lug? - I think not.

[Chris Partridge]

One of the reasons I like the Walkabout's yawl rig - a short boom with less bonce-bashing potential.

[Timmo]

Do like the Walkabout (have a set of plans in the drawer) and have really enjoyed the yawl rigged boats I've sailed.

Chose Ilur over the walkabout partly because I'll be building it in France just a little way from the West coast and a Vivier design just seemed more respectful somehow. 

The Ilur can also be rigged as a Yawl. !'m not dead against that idea, but it is an extra mast, bumpkin and sail to rig. The longer it takes to get the boat afloat and sailing the less often she'll be used, hence the focus on a single (drop in) masted rig.

People talk a lot about booms hitting heads. So far (40 years of sailing dinghies more and less intensively in everything from Lasers to Wayfarers) I've never hit my head with the boom once. Or, come to that, hit a boom with my head. Now I may just be lucky (touching wood between key strokes) or extra cautious. Or is that actually the norm and concerns over booms and heads connecting are sometimes over stated? Cue for any stories of busted skulls...

I did once (30 odd years ago) have someone I was teaching sailing accuse me, and the organisation I worked for, of recklessly endangering life because we didn't make students wear helmets in sailing boats. Can't actually remember how we handled that, but he did accept that his concerns and accusations were unnecessary. Do centres make students wear helmets these, safety conscious, days?

Tim

On 19 Jun 2015, at 09:39, Chris Partridge [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

One of the reasons I like the Walkabout's yawl rig - a short boom with less bonce-bashing potential.

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[alopenboat]

On 19 Jun 2015 at 1:39, Chris Partridge [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> One of the reasons I like the Walkabout's yawl rig - a short boom with
> less bonce-bashing potential.
> <http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/file/n4028944/image151.jpg>

Of course you can always go down the Paradox route and virtually
eliminate bruised heads by putting the boom above head height.

--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>

[BrianP]

Buying a UK priced kit, and building in France is a very astute move Tim. An Ilur in France is a valuable boat, French kit and boat prices are much higher than in the UK, so you have probably chosen the best way possible of securing a reasonable return on your work if you ever do sell.

Having spoken at length to the Ilur builder at Beale, he was very experienced in sailing the boomless lug and completely happy with the rig and the short light downwind "stick" that is drawn in the plans for use downwind.

It just seems to be the "right" rig for an Ilur. Yes, Chris can write at length about what's wrong with it, and as a lug rig racer I could have written even more about why balanced lug is best, but right now, for an Ilur, for learning new skills and older ways, I think boomless will be more pleasurable and rewarding. Roger seems to manage fine.

Brian

[Timmo]

Selling's not the plan at this stage, though penury may yet strike!

Thanks for adding weight to the boomless argument.

I will stand on the quay at La Rochelle in a week or two and see what rig seems most popular (if I can spot anything remotely traditional among the surfeit of plastic hulled bermudan rigged boats.)

Fortunately I can sleep on the decision many times before I need to make it final.

Tim

On 19 Jun 2015, at 12:06, BrianP [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Buying a UK priced kit, and building in France is a very astute move Tim. An Ilur in France is valuable boat, French kit and boat prices are much higher than in the UK, so you have probably chosen the best way possible of securing a reasonable return on your work if you ever do sell.

Having spoken at length to the Ilur builder at Beale, he was very experienced in sailing the boomless lug and completely happy with the rig and the short light downwind "stick" that is drawn in the plans for use downwind.

It just seems to be the "right" rig for an Ilur. Yes, Chris can write at length about what's wrong with it, and as a lug rig racer I could have written even more about why balanced lug is best, but right now, for an Ilur, for learning new skills and older ways, I think boomless will be more pleasurable and rewarding. Roger seems to manage fine.

Brian

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[Chris Waite]

I know I'm being a pernickety old fart Brian

But, due to family stuff, I can't get away and out on the water too much at the moment, so I am reduced to pontificating on line.  All these rigs work perfectly reasonably, but as youth and beauty fade all the little irritations that we tolerated while hanging off the edge of some thundering brute, getting half drowned in spray; they come back to taunt us.

Well me anyway and as sense and seniority increasingly dominate, it becomes an interesting exercise, (or perhaps an overriding obsession?) to try and design those annoying quirks out of our increasingly perfect vessels.

I know what you mean in saying that the misainier rig suits the Ilur, they’re both traditional….  if you want to learn “older ways”; it would also work just well on a Puddle-duck Racer.  You could also light your kitchen hob with a bow-drill, a fireboard and some tinder, he exaggerated
 
But

You and I, after years of grizzly experience, have separately come to the conclusion that for simplicity in getting out there and ‘doing it’ – loving and living with moderately sized dinghies, such as the majority of us own, the balance lug has overall the most advantages in combination with the least disadvantages.  Go on someone, brace yourself and ask me why

I also agree with the opinion that in our little dinghies

Serious boom-attack is an overrated threat

Not non-existent, mind

Just rare

CW

(Come to think of it, with some of the sail forward of the mast, that counterbalance reduces any ferocity that the boom might otherwise muster – how’s that for an advantage?)

[AdrianG]

"...the balance lug has overall the most advantages in combination with the least disadvantages. Go on someone, brace yourself and ask me why"

I can' resist.
Bracing.

Why, dear Christopher?

(I daresay we can all think of a few pros & cons, but interested to hear your list.)

Kind regards
Adrian