CCC 2013

[Jeremy]

Gets my vote, Paul.

I think it would be fantastic to have a competition for amateur built small boat electric propulsion systems, particularly if it were focussed on practicality, rather outright speed.

There is so much scope for innovation and efficiency improvement in small boat propulsion that it has to be something worth promoting.  As the CCC has shown, there's no shortage of innovators around.

[Alan]

I suppose a sensible competition might be a one hour endurance race, possibly held at a small boat festival somewhere. Longer would be too boring for spectators. If a useful boat is expected to be developed then the rules could specify a payload of, say 150kg, as ballast or people (including skipper). I suggest a single lead battery of 12v 105Ah because I happen to have two of them; this could realistically supply 800 or 900 watts for the duration.

[Paul H (admin)]

Good ideas Alan,

My suggestion was to finish at the lake, the only bit that might appeal to spectators.

The cheap R/C power meters could measure the one mile power consumption, plus power used in a final entertaining race around the lake.  Boats could be ranked on speed around the lake, also efficiency over one mile.

24V is a better limit, lower current losses and longer battery life.

-Paul

[3styler]

There could be something here... do you remember the Top Gear Challenge when they left Basel in three cars, A Jag, Legacy and a Polo, and had to drive to Blackpool to turn on the Xmas lights with a sealed petrol tank?

So how about the car battery challenge.... the boats start the same time say 12 miles away from Beale park each with a fixed amp/hourage of battery and it is the first back. So do you go fast and might not finish or slow but guarantee to get there..... The race could be tracked using either find my iphone or google latitude and shown on a big screen....

Any competition needs a catchy idea. The canoe cordless challenge certainly has got it. People can get the idea of boats powered by everyday power tools. The trouble is the current level of engineering required to play in the 60v class seems disproportionate to the concept. (well how I have interpreted it, and currently building it at least......)

Simon.

[Alan]

Thought I'd make myself feel better by declaring my pre Beale panic.
I've been trying but failing to make some super propellers for my Four Candles airboat. Designing them using Javaprop was relatively easy but going from a computer drawing to the real thing is not. The plan was to make the props from hot-wire cut foam, on carbon fibre tube spars, covered with glass/epoxy and fitted to a turned nylon hub with pitch adjustment. At a very late stage I discovered that my newly acquired lathe doesn't have the jaws to grip 80mm dia. nylon rod so that idea was scuppered. A huge panic came up with the idea of a rectangular wooden hub and two were made, looks like they will work ok.
Trying to make a jig to accurately hot-wire two part, highly twisted double tapered blades was something else, especially when they need a neat through hole in one piece and a blind hole in the other to accommodate the carbon tube spar. I might just give up and watch telly like normal people.
Or tomorrow I might try fitting hand drawn and cut ribs around the spar and then sheeting them with balsa, which will need some kind of jig to control the twist.
Are other CCCers all finished and ready to go then?

[Tom]

Sorry to hear you're having a hard time Alan.

The last minute stuff is never good.

Sounds like you've got good ideas, it's implementing them that can be challenging.

Water props are usually better at lower performance levels but that tid-bit

likely doesn't help either.

I'll shut-up now...

On May 7, 2013 1:59 PM, "Alan [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thought I'd make myself feel better by declaring my pre Beale panic.
I've been trying but failing to make some super propellers for my Four Candles airboat. Designing them using Javaprop was relatively easy but going from a computer drawing to the real thing is not. The plan was to make the props from hot-wire cut foam, on carbon fibre tube spars, covered with glass/epoxy and fitted to a turned nylon hub with pitch adjustment. At a very late stage I discovered that my newly acquired lathe doesn't have the jaws to grip 80mm dia. nylon rod so that idea was scuppered. A huge panic came up with the idea of a rectangular wooden hub and two were made, looks like they will work ok.
Trying to make a jig to accurately hot-wire two part, highly twisted double tapered blades was something else, especially when they need a neat through hole in one piece and a blind hole in the other to accommodate the carbon tube spar. I might just give up and watch telly like normal people.
Or tomorrow I might try fitting hand drawn and cut ribs around the spar and then sheeting them with balsa, which will need some kind of jig to control the twist.
Are other CCCers all finished and ready to go then?

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[Dennis A]

AirGlider

Testing of the Airglider has now been finished and due to  complete lack of speed, the boat has been withdrawn from the CCC2013. To sum it up I failed to make the boat plane with only 200 Watts and achieved a top speed of only 3.4 mph which is about half the speed that I did last year in the event.
I have changed my entry to Fast 3 and have build a new faster rotating propeller to try and achieve better acceleration.
Last year I was the only person using the drill low speed setting and the propeller was working at approximately 280 rpm. Now I think that the propeller will be rotating at around 1050 rpm. I did at the last canal trial have a small vibration problem, with the GPS shaking so much that I could not read it
For those not present at CCC2011 when trying to use the higher speed I burnt out the drill motor.
Additionally the rudder turning lock has been increased to help my racing snake around the 180 buoy

Dennis

[Joe]

Hi Dennis,

It's shame you've had to withdraw it because it sounded a very novel project-  maybe you can rig it up with an electric motor and show off the concept? Has anyone else had success with planing or hydrofoiling boats with such modest power?

Regards
Joe

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Dennis A [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

AirGlider

Testing of the Airglider has now been finished and due to  complete lack of speed, the boat has been withdrawn from the CCC2013. To sum it up I failed to make the boat plane with only 200 Watts and achieved a top speed of only 3.4 mph which is about half the speed that I did last year in the event.
I have changed my entry to Fast 3 and have build a new faster rotating propeller to try and achieve better acceleration.
Last year I was the only person using the drill low speed setting and the propeller was working at approximately 280 rpm. Now I think that the propeller will be rotating at around 1050 rpm. I did at the last canal trial have a small vibration problem, with the GPS shaking so much that I could not read it
For those not present at CCC2011 when trying to use the higher speed I burnt out the drill motor.
Additionally the rudder turning lock has been increased to help my racing snake around the 180 buoy

Dennis

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[Alan]

Thanks Tom, sympathy appreciated.
I've just decided to abandon prop making and speed up the propellers I already have; It'll either get done tomorrow or abandoned.
Dennis, you don't have to give up with planing; it's a race and there is no limit to power so you don't have to apply a 200w rule to yourself, or stick resolutely to one drill.

[Alan]

Finally threw together a step-up 1:1.5 belt drive speed increaser and was very disappointed
with the result. 460w and 1650 rpm means just 7% more prop speed for 75% more input power after accounting for extra losses due to the belt and more bearings. These numbers don't really add up as there should be about 20% more speed for 75% more power, probably a measurement error. This is not enough difference to have a chance of winning; I suspect I have reached the limit of my drills.

[Dennis A]

Hi Alan
I assume that the figures quoted are from a static test. If the forward boat speed is low or approaching zero then the propeller efficiency will drop way down to 10% or lower. Therefore if you had 460 watts the prop could only be pushing out around 22 watts to the air, when the boat starts to move this should increase up to the predicted figures.  I do not known what your design program predicts as I find it very difficult to use.

Dennis

[3styler]

This seems to be a pre Beale panic for most of us. For various reasons my entry is still being assembled in the garage. The paint will still wet, and it could be completely untested by the time of the event ...... At least you guys are trying stuff.........

Simon.

P. S. Does anyone know of a good hotel to stay near Beale? My dad might be coming to watch and look at the steamboats, and would be looking for somewhere.

[Alan]

3styler,
It seems unusually difficult to find somewhere to stay near Beale. We are staying in an expensive BnB again but you have to fight your way through online hawkers who offer accommodation which doesn't exist. Best to just search for hotels, including the names of nearby towns.
I've just seen my brothers recently acquired but very old Hymer; that would be a lovely place to stay if he hadn't just driven it to Corfu.

[3styler]

OK the panic continues........the boat is now finished and I am trying to paint it and seek your advice......

I ordered a whole lot of Epifanes primer and top coat, but 48 hours later in these damp conditions the primer has not cured. (The boat is being painted in a garage which is heated between 15 and 222 degrees, but if it's raining outside it will be damp inside.........) However the value B&Q primer I painted the rudder with was fine after 6 hours......

Should I ditch the "posh" stuff and resort to Wickes / B&Q finest........

This is running so close to the wire, I'm trying it out on a local lake on Thursday 6th....... as someone pointed out there's not alot you can do about it if it does not work......

Cheers,

Simon

[Paul H (admin)]

Simon,

Was the primer one or two pack?  If two pack then it is probably epoxy based and temperature is the key to a quicker cure so stick her out in the sun when it arrives - I don't think dampness makes any difference. There is a well known home built DCA boat that still has the grey primer from her build in the 1970s - so there is no rush for the top coat!

If one pack you might have something like the dreaded problem of varnish taking a long time to harden if painted on uncured epoxy. There is nothing you can do about that except be patient.


I would leave the primer alone and forget the top coat, with at least 8 days to go it should get firmer each day.

BTW: I think 2-pack is the dogs'. MilliBee's paint is 8 years old and still rock solid - I used Jotun 2-pack epoxy primer and two pack polyurethane top coat. One or two areas are not good where 1) I forgot primer and 2) the epoxy did not stick well to oily Pine
Instead of touching up single pack each year I relax with a beer in the garden.

-Paul

[Dennis A]

I was giving FAST her last trial run on the canal before the CCC with a replacement drill when it cut out.  Some manufactures now appear to install automatic over load protection to prevent over heating. This will unfortunately limit the output to a time base, but it will prevent burn outs like I suffered at the first years event.

Dennis A

[Tom]

Interesting.

Thanks Dennis.

-Tom

On Jun 3, 2013 2:39 AM, "Dennis A [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was giving FAST her last trial run on the canal before the CCC with a replacement drill when it cut out.  Some manufactures now appear to install automatic over load protection to prevent over heating. This will unfortunately limit the output to a time base, but it will prevent burn outs like I suffered at the first years event.

Dennis A

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[Alan]

I hate this ridiculous competition so much that I'm planning to cut up Four Candles after the event to prevent all this time wasting next year. I have ended up with two "conventional" long shafts and propellers in water. Even the lifting mechanism for weed removal has been simplified until it barely works. But what fun we'll say we had after the event!
'Look forward to seeing the HBBR and ABBA people, and having time for a chat.

[Paul H (admin)]

Alan,

I think its time for a beer or two relaxing in the sun!

You have worked hard on the project and we will all be interested to see your progress, both good and bad. The bad bits will help others avoid problems, so none of your work will be in vain.

If you and others have perhaps pushed the design envelope as far as it can reasonably go, maybe its time to change the focus away from cordless drills and include other forms of electric propulsion. So yes there will be plenty to chat about with the builders and organisers.


Personally I think using just cordless drills is getting a tad beyond the humorous joke is once was. So much time and expertise has been invested, it's time to step up to a different form of electric drive.

Something that would push a small canoe or dinghy along for a few miles is far more practical and relevant to the challenges of noise, oil and smoke pollution that we face on rivers today.

-Paul

[3styler]

Alan wrote

I hate this ridiculous competition so much ....................

yes I was thinking that at 6am this morning when I was glueing on the seats and the rubbing strakes. My entry goes in the water for the first time tomorrow afternoon so it is time to see if the last 6 months effort has been worth it.........

Simon