Google Rankings

[Paul H (admin)]

This Nabble site has dropped off the Google rankings, i.e. it does not show up in a Google search for "HBBR" or "HBBR Forum".  The Google servers have changed how they rank sites.

The only way to find us is by some of this forum's threads popping up in the search, or the HBBR Forum link on the WordPress site (which does not turn up if you search "HBBR Forum").


These problems are caused by the WordPress site, sitting there in parallel gathering dust. Because none of us actively monitors or updates that site it is becoming a white elephant. Personally I would bin it and take measures to make this forum appear at the top of a search AND/OR register "hbbr.co.uk" and direct it to the forum which would cost about £5 per year.


I'd like to know everyone's opinion on this subject.

-Paul

[GregHBBR]

Hi Paul,

adminHBBR wrote

I'd like to know everyone's opinion on this subject.

You may recall the last time we discussed this topic I argued for the binning of the WordPress and Blogspot sites as unwieldy creations that few here had the technical expertise to participate in maintaining. Instead I created a "homeboatbuilder" (or some such) account at PlusNet, my ISP. I let that go, because of the negative response at the time, but continue to maintain another account I created which offers the domain:

ukhbbr.plus.com

that until 30 minutes ago wasn't used.

In view of your question I have just uploaded a small "shell" site that I created last time round - so some of the info may be a little dated and in need of changing, but it should contain enough of the key words people might use in searches where we are relevant. Take a look:

http://www.ukhbbr.plus.com/index.html

For those who want to go direct to this forum enter:

http://www.ukhbbr.plus.com/forum.html

instead. This URL will remain available AT NO COST for as long as I keep polling the mail server at least once every 90 days. (Currently I do this every 20 minutes while my computer is running - and typically that's most of time between 09:00 and 02:00)!

Associated with the account are an unlimited number of mail addresses so, for instance, it could be used for rally organisers with addresses such as [e-mail] and [e-mail] Such addresses could be re-directed anywhere or just used temporarily and abandoned.

It's now just a matter of telling google that it exists and it should begin to turn up in searches.

[Peter Nobes]

I guess the old yahoo site isn't fulfilling any purpose except keeping an archive of photos.  Is there any way of moving them to the Nabble forum?

On 16 August 2012 16:55, GregHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Paul,

adminHBBR wrote

I'd like to know everyone's opinion on this subject.

You may recall the last time we discussed this topic I argued for the binning of the WordPress and Blogspot sites as unwieldy creations that few here had the technical expertise to participate in maintaining. Instead I created a "homeboatbuilder" (or some such) account at PlusNet, my ISP. I let that go, because of the negative response at the time, but continue to maintain another account I created which offers the domain:

ukhbbr.plus.com

that until 30 minutes ago wasn't used.

In view of your question I have just uploaded a small "shell" site that I created last time round - so some of the info may be a little dated and in need of changing, but it should contain enough of the key words people might use in searches where we are relevant. Take a look:

http://www.ukhbbr.plus.com/index.html

For those who want to go direct to this forum enter:

http://www.ukhbbr.plus.com/forum.html

instead. This URL will remain available AT NO COST for as long as I keep polling the mail server at least once every 90 days. (Currently I do this every 20 minutes while my computer is running - and typically that's most of time between 09:00 and 02:00)!

Associated with the account are an unlimited number of mail addresses so, for instance, it could be used for rally organisers with addresses such as [hidden email] and [hidden email] Such addresses could be re-directed anywhere or just used temporarily and abandoned.

It's now just a matter of telling google that it exists and it should begin to turn up in searches.

Greg Chapman
GregAfloat - My Boating Biography

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NAML

--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[GregHBBR]

Hi Paul,

I should have added, to make it work properly, (as it stands it is possible to jump out of the ukhbbr.plus.com "wrapper") you need to go to OPTIONS > EMBEDDING OPTIONS and make the choice:

( ) Redirect them to: http://www.ukhbbr.plus.com/forum.html

[GregHBBR]

Peter Nobes wrote

I guess the old yahoo site isn't fulfilling any purpose except keeping an
archive of photos.  Is there any way of moving them to the Nabble forum?

Not en masse, but anyone who is still a member of the YahooGroup can visit the Photos section copy them and upload them here one by one (providing you ignore the owners copyright, of course.)

It's probably better for the authors/photographers themselves to make a new post here using the original images.

[Paul H (admin)]

That's a good suggestion Greg - it could/should become the main focus.

I like the idea of a simple "wrapper" page - almost zero maintenance but it integrates things nicely (could link to the "old" sites for legacy photos)

-Paul

[Peter Nobes]

Although... Anyone who knows we exist will find us and anyone who doesn't know we exist won't be searching for HBBR.

On 16 August 2012 17:49, adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's a good suggestion Greg - it could/should become the main focus.

I like the idea of a simple "wrapper" page - almost zero maintenance but it integrates things nicely (could link to the "old" sites for legacy photos)

-Paul

http://www.millibee.com

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NAML

--
Peter Nobes
Teacher of the Alexander Technique
London UK
www.alexandertech.co.uk
www.facebook.com/AlexanderTechniqueLondon

www.youtube.com/ZenForOurTime

South Bank Alexander Centre
www.AlexanderCentre.co.uk
020 7928 6378

[GregHBBR]

Peter Nobes wrote

Although... Anyone who knows we exist will find us and anyone who doesn't
know we exist won't be searching for HBBR.

That's why it is important that there are plenty of the right kind of key words in the "wrapper" pages. I'm open to suggestions for changes to the wording on the existing pages. And there's capacity for adding additional pages that could be more relevant for certain kinds of searches (not that I can think what they might be at the moment - perhaps some specialism like making spars? :-) ) to replace the "dummy" pages that are on the menu already.

[Port-Na-Storm]

Why dont we use a name like Home Boatbuilding or build your own boat, for the shell and then point people to the forum. People are more likely to find us from a search that way.
I don't think having yet another site called HBBR/WHATEVER is going to reduce the confusion,

---

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Google Rankings
From: "GregHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
To: Port-Na-Storm <[hidden email]>
CC:

Peter Nobes wrote

Although... Anyone who knows we exist will find us and anyone who doesn't
know we exist won't be searching for HBBR.

That's why it is important that there are plenty of the right kind of key words in the "wrapper" pages. I'm open to suggestions for changes to the wording on the existing pages. And there's capacity for adding additional pages that could be more relevant for certain kinds of searches (not that I can think what they might be at the moment - perhaps some specialism like making spars? :-) ) to replace the "dummy" pages that are on the menu already.

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To unsubscribe from UK HBBR Forum, click here.
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[GregHBBR]

Port-Na-Storm wrote

Why dont we use a name like Home Boatbuilding or build your own boat, for the shell and then point people to the forum. People are more likely to find us from a search that way.

That's what I thought last time, but it was very roundly rejected then, so much that I disposed of the alternative account I set up.

I now realise, and any search result page will demonstrate, that having the search terms in the page title (the text that appears on the browser title bar or tab) are more important than the URL. After those two locations, it's the terms found in the page's main headings that count most - and getting the important key words as close to the top of the page as possible.

That's why I disposed of the other URL. I felt "home boat building" was too general. I felt that to gain position is search rankings we'd probably be better off sticking with our name in the URL but adding a small collection of pages with appropriate titles that will come up in slightly more specialised searches by people wanting to build boats.

[David Bewick]

Dear All,

Strangly, I hit the old HBBR website by mistake from my favourites only the other day and it occurred to me that it was in a pretty moribund state (e.g. telling people that details of the 2011 rallies would soon be posted!).  To my mind, we need to think about the content on this site and the processes for creating and maintaining that content.  If no-one has the inclination to maintain it, the best thing we can probably do is to bin it!

Incidentally, I met a chap at Seafair Haven who said he had been looking to find out is there was a Thames raid this year but he only knew about the old HBBR site (that did not help him at all) and was not aware of this forum where all the "organisation" was actually being done.

I know we have all got used to using it but, when you think about it, using "HBBR" as the main handle for all our activities is pretty obscure and much of our online discussion has little to do with rallies at all.  Perhaps the time really has come for us to refocus our terminology onto the one thing that really brings us together - "home built boats"?  

Best regards,

David.

[GregHBBR]

David Bewick wrote

I know we have all got used to using it but, when you think about it, using "HBBR" as the main handle for all our activities is pretty obscure and much of our online discussion has little to do with rallies at all.  Perhaps the time really has come for us to refocus our terminology onto the one thing that really brings us together - "home built boats"?

So you'll be pleased to know that those three words (ignoring the plural form) already appear as the page title on the home page at:

http://www.ukhbbr.plus.com/index.html

There are also terms like "plans", "kit" and "design" on the page, but clearly it would be better to create a page with those words as the page title.

I agree that HBBR is not the typical search term for potential new members. We need to come up with a list of terms that we might have used in a search before we discovered the site, then create some brief pages on those topics that are not time critical in any way (i.e. don't mention a particular event).

Let's say we create five real pages to replace the two dummy pages currently at the ukhbbr.plus.com address: Here's a starter list of five general topics for those pages and some terms that should appear on them:

DESIGN: hull, keel planks decking, plans
CONSTRUCTION: stitch and glue, kit, plywood, epoxy resin
PROPULSION: paddles oars yuloh rowlocks outboards electric
SAILING: spars, rigging, mast, sail plan
FINISHING: varnish, paint, varnol, polyurethane

Do these general topics cover enough of the field? What additional terms should appear on the pages?

[simplesimon]

Peter Nobes wrote:
>I guess the old yahoo site isn't fulfilling any purpose except keeping an archive of photos.  <


NOT TRUE!

Don't confuse the functions of a website with those of a forum.

The website is HBBR's public face to the world. It (should) inform people about HBBR, what it is, what it is not, what it does, and how to get involved. It's advertising.

The forum is for the "members". It's not really for the public. If we were a physical club it would be the record of discussions in the club bar. It doesn't tell people anything about HBBR, only what we are discussing at the moment.

HBBR needs both; and both need to be maintained.  It's a pity that the Google link to "HBBR Forum" points at a page on the Wordpress site that starts "The new HBBR forum is here" when it patently isn't. At least that page needs a redirect to the Nabble site.

So, no, don't close the wordpress site - maintain it! Make it a proper shop window.

JMHO
Simon

[GregHBBR]

Hi Simon,

simplesimon wrote

Peter Nobes wrote:
>I guess the old yahoo site isn't fulfilling any purpose except keeping an archive of photos.  <

NOT TRUE!

Agreed! The function of the Yahoo site is not just as an archive of photographs. It is also an archive of earlier discussions.

I also agree with the main thrust of your post which is that the UK-HBBR needs both an advertising  platform and a members discussion area and both need to be maintained. However, I feel your proposal is flawed...

So, no, don't close the wordpress site - maintain it! Make it a proper shop window.

The trouble is that those involved in the site clearly lost interest in it a couple of years ago and we have no control over them or it. In short, we cannot maintain it. So we need to produce an alternative site for the advertising function.

While it is true that it continues to figure high in search results for "HBBR" (almost entirely because it includes that term both in the Page Title and URL) as others have pointed out, as advertising, it is pretty useless, since the people we are trying to attract won't be be aware of and won't be searching for "HBBR".

Surely, the ideal is to combine advertising and discussion in a single site. Indeed, that was one of the main reasons I proposed the use of Nabble when there began to be complaints about our YahooGroup. It allows the discussion archive to be embedded in the site designed to attract people to it. That's why I say let us ignore the Wordpress site and create a "wrapper" site in which advertising and the forum/mail list archive can be combined.

[Paul H (admin)]

Greg is heading in the right direction.  I don't have time to maintain the static Wordpress site - the Nabble site is dynamic and the content grows with the membership, which significantly reduces maintenance work.

BTW: Does anyone remember the http://ukhbbr.blogspot.co.uk/ I prototyped? It's a Google blog with the forum embedded. I think it went down like a lead balloon at the time, but ironically it works just like Greg's wrapper...how times change

The Google blog offers a simple "shop window" to the world and several of us have created and maintained our own Google blogs - Port-Na-Storm, Rowing for Pleasure etc.  If we don't like the "HBBR" name we can create a new blog like "UKHomeBoatBuilding.blogspot.co.uk" etc. etc.

I'm not into competitive website technology so I don't mind which one we go with, but Greg's approach gives more freedom.

-Paul

[GregHBBR]

adminHBBR wrote

I don't have time to maintain the static Wordpress site

Oops! Hope I didn't step on toes. I had thought that was someone else's who'd left the fold.

the Nabble site is dynamic and the content grows with the membership, which significantly reduces maintenance work.

And, for me, the important feature is that even the less computer-skilled folk amongst us seem to be able to post to the forum or use their normal email program and participate.

Does anyone remember the http://ukhbbr.blogspot.co.uk/ I prototyped? It's a Google blog with the forum embedded. I think it went down like a lead balloon at the time, but ironically it works just like Greg's wrapper...how times change

Don't do yourself down, No one's actually said they like "Greg's Wrapper" yet!

The Google blog offers a simple "shop window" to the world and several of us have created and maintained our own Google blogs

I recall that at the time that was supposed to be the appeal of blogspot over WordPress. More of our users were familiar with it, so more people might be available to help maintain it.

However, perhaps it is that both those technologies started as blogging platforms and are designed to give prominence to the latest post or the way that the samples were set up and didn't show enough of the "advertising" possibilities that Simon (and I) see is the purpose of the second (perhaps integrated) site, or that we had just gone through a technical argument on whether to drop Yahoo. Whatever the reason, we had a silent majority that didn't express a view on what for them was presumably a peripheral issue to boat building, and left it to the technocrats to do something - and we did nothing.

My father's funeral is on Tuesday, so I won't have time to devote to putting together, those draft "advertising wrapper" pages I spoke of till later next week, but if that is the route that's chosen to go, I should be able to put something soon after that.

[David Bewick]

Guys,

I think we are heading for an upset if we think that technology will solve the problems we have.  Simon is absolutely right that in the ideal world we would have a shop window for the "world" to see and somewhere where the "members" can chat.  If these can be combined, so much the better.  The main problem with our shop window is not the underlying technology it is the information management (how many times have I said that?).  Unless we are prepared to keep the content up to date and fresh it will always end up like the site we have now, irrespective of the technology that supports it.  I really don't mind too much what the technical solution is but I do think it is critical that we have something that allows anyone with the inclination to do so to add and edit content without being an IT expert.

I would be very happy to be the steward of part of the content of a web site if that woud help.

Regards,

David.

[GregHBBR]

Simon is absolutely right that in the ideal world we would have a shop window for the "world" to see and somewhere where the "members" can chat.

I don't see anyone here arguing for anything different.

If these can be combined, so much the better.

Simon didn't make a statement on that, but I'd agree.

The main problem with our shop window is not the underlying technology it is the information management (how many times have I said that?).  Unless we are prepared to keep the content up to date and fresh it will always end up like the site we have now, irrespective of the technology that supports it.

Here we may differ, but perhaps I misunderstand what you see as the advertising message. For me the message is static and does not change. It's exactly the same as it was when Alec Jordan paid for the original domain and is "This is the place to discuss home built boats". (I'll happily accept some variation of that!)

The issue is, how do people find us? As a web-based group that will be either by following a link from some other site or via a search engine. We haven't got too much control over those who link to us so the answer is in finding terms that people who might find our group of interest and placing them in the right places on a web site that includes our forum. Leaving aside the development of some dramatic new material that is suitable for boat building, the terms that people might use when our group might be a good result for them are much the same as they would have been twenty years ago, if not fifty. That is why there is no need for complex wiki, blog or CMS technologies, where all those with the technical skills have their favourite software or service provider.

I really don't mind too much what the technical solution is but I do think it is critical that we have something that allows anyone with the inclination to do so to add and edit content without being an IT expert.

I think that suggestion is the very reason why it all fell over last time. We couldn't agree on a technical solution to achieve that. However, if we accept that the basic advertising message does NOT change, then some simple static pages will do the job. On the rare occasions that the advertising message needs to be changed, then should the original "wrapper" no longer be accessible, then it would be a very simple matter to copy the existing material, edit it, and host it somewhere else. To insure against that I am quite happy to share the access details of the ukhbbr.plus.com domain with one or two others in case I drop dead suddenly.

[Port-Na-Storm]

OK Here we go.

Firstly, true confession time. I've got a log-in to the wordpress site and I haven't been updating it either.

So its not a lack of access or ability stopping it being updated, just a lack of will. Its good to hear David volunteer to help. Well done that man!

A quick history lesson for those who weren't around;

UK-HBBR was originally set up on the old Yahoo Forum, we moved away from that because people were fed up of all the adverts in their e-mails, and you couldn't do things like post photographs in messages, only into separate albums.  The ownership of that group was passed over to me by Alex Jordan and I still have the power of life and death over it. I intend to leave it dormant but still in existence, to maintain the archive of Photos and some of great discussion.  I recently had cause to go back and trawl through some of it as you'll see in a future edition of WaterCraft and it was very enjoyable.  

At some later point the wordpress site was created, I think by Chris Perkins with some help from Paul, Chris Partridge and myself.  Yes this was supposed to be the shop window with rally reports, and all manner of interesting articles..........................pause while a ball of prairie grass rolls across the screen.

When we decided to leave Yahoo and head for Nabble, it was suggested that an integrated site which included an embedded forum would be just the ticket. Paul and Greg did a fair amount of developing and proto-typing, but unfortunately the software at the time restricted the size of the window available to the forum and it was all scrunched up in the middle of the screen.

Then someone, less interested in the technology and more pragmatic in nature suggested that a simple link to the forum was pretty much the same as being embedded, so we linked the wordpress site to the new Nabble forum and that is where we should be today.

In fact I've just checked;  I've just googled UK-HBBR and the top return takes me to the wordpress site. If you click on the FORUM tab on it takes you to our current Nabble Forum.

So where does that take us? Precisely right back where we started.

I agree with David that the technology is irrelevant, provided it works.

I think we have proven that it is unlikely a shop window web site will get much in the way of updates. With the best will in the world the editor can't be everywhere and if they don't get supplied with good content then the site won't be updated.

If we want to attract others to our group, and by that I really mean Real People who really want to turn up at our Rallies in the Real World. Then I think Greg is right that a stripped down shell, with all the right key words and phrases to attract search engines might be the way forward. It doesn't matter which technology is used but I would make one heart felt plea.

Do not Bugger-Around with this Forum. We lost some good old friends in the crossing between Yahoo and here and I don't want to lose any more.

PS the general radio silence right now is probably due to the number of more active members getting ready to go to Cobnor which is exactly what I should be doing.
Cheers
Graham

 


 

[David Bewick]

Guys,

Just one more comment, if I may, on the "shop window" site.  I can see that much of the content on this site is going to be fairly static if it represents the shared wisdom on how to do something to do with boat building.  However, at least one part of the content - that to do with planned events - should be dynamic and that is the thing that lets down the current site more than anything else in my view.  I think the process should be that we have a discussion in the forum to nail down the details of any future event and then post at least the location and dates on the "shop window" site.  I would be happy to maintain this part of the site if no-one else wants to and if someone can give me the necessary access rights.

Best regards,

David.