New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

[BrianP]

I have been following your posts on the ideal Thames Raid boat, and thinking seriously about my needs to sit as still as possible in the boat and avoid the head ducking and spinning round involved with dinghy sailing. Sailing estuary waters such as Keyhaven also leads me more to rowing, rather than kayak paddling.
Ever since I went to the Turks auction where I spent nearly the whole time closely admiring an original 1880's Nautilus sailing canoe, I have harboured a wish to try and bring about a newly designed Nautilus built using modern epoxy ply techniques.

I girded my loins and wrote to John Welsford and asked if he might possibly take a commission to design such a vessel. Well, John did accept my invite and the first results are available, as John now works on the details.

Here is a first view of this new design from John Welsford.




She is 15'5" x 38", 60 sq ft, her forward and aft hatches lift to form either end of a sleeping tent for overnighting aboard. She is also set up for sliding thwart rowing with short folding outriggers. Built from 4mm ply with 5 planks per side. She will have approx 250 litres of buoyancy and will be stable enough to climb aboard when swamped. She has twin assymetric bilgeboards which pierce through the side decks to keep any water out of the cockpit. The boards will be weighted and there is also a water ballast tank to keep her nice and stable for us older sailors. The cockpit has lots of storage to hand as well as storage in the end tanks. She is reefable from the cockpit, the mainsail stows on the decks for rowing and sleeping aboard.

Sailing canoes were hugely popular in the 1880's and the Nautilus line of canoes by Baden-Powell were at the forefront of development. Ever since I stood next to a Nautilus last year and saw how full bodied and powerful it's hull shape was, I have dreamed of a new Nautilus, a proper cruising canoe. I am just so pleased that John accepted my commission for this new Nautilus.

I do hope you like her, and with some trepidation ask for your comments .....

Brian

[Port-Na-Storm]

Which kind of shows that there really isn't anything new under the sun. Except..........



This is a rough sketch for the sailplan for Katie Beardie. Designed by Chris Waite with bad mannered interruptions from me.

Of course one sailing canoe, based on the Victorian versions is pretty much going to look like the next. It is in the detail and subtleties you see the difference.

Katie is a bit narrower that John's design at 30" even then I think this is pushing it in terms of paddleability, and by that I mean sitting, facing forward with a double paddle.
It's very interesting that John's boat can be rowed. Not a bad thing at all and it will probably go really well being so narrow, however the beauty of a sailing canoe, especially on those winding rivers is that the rig can be hoisted and lowered at the whim of the breeze. And you can see where you are going.  I don't much fancy having to spin round and face the other way every time the wind drops.

Katie isn't intended to have any ballast. My already excessive weight plus 40-50 lbs of camping gear should be enough.  Maybe if I fancy going for a serious sail I'll borrow a couple of Wayne's Sand-Bags or a jerry can or two of water.
I'm planning to have plenty of Buoyancy, both fixed polystyrene foam, and in the watertight luggage chambers so that if the cockpit does get swamped there is plenty in reserve to keep her up.
Those original Victorian canoes were pretty heavy with mahogany planks, bronze centreboards and tons of heavy canvas camping equipment. No wonder they were brave enough to brave the Minch from Barra to Skye.
I honestly think that twin boards is excessive on such a small boat, I guess its a case of one thing leading to another. If you start with the premis that you should be able to sleep on board, then the cockpit must be kept clear so you end up pushing things to the side and unless you plan to go to the obvious extreme and have twin lee boards John's solution is the inevitable consequence.

One or two of the people at Lower Load will have seen me trying Katie's cockpit for a full length stretch, and yes it could be done but I'm afraid every time I rolled over I'd get that imminent capsize feeling and probably wake up with rampant motion sickness so sleeping on board is not for me in this skinny wee lassie.
The plan is for Katie to have a proper centreboard, yes it will get in the way but that's the way the Victorians did it and I'm prepared to put up with it.

Every boat is a series of compromises. In the end it really depends which attributes are the most important. For me its easy paddling, reasonably stable sailing with the ability to self recover and douse the rig quickly. Enough room for my kit for a week and a good view forward to see the birdies. To get that I'm prepared to give up the ability to sleep aboard.  

I have a lot of respect for John Welsford and think some of his designs are great. I think if you want to Sail and Row and sleep aboard he has probably already cracked it with the Walkabout. Still the proof is in the pudding, so it will be interesting to see the finished example.

Just my view. Graham

[BrianP]

I think they are both lovely boats. It's great that sailing canoes are making a comeback. Just slightly different focus. Katie on kayak paddling, sleeping off the boat, aimed at the upper Thames. New Nautilus at open sea sliding thwart rowing, ( did not get on with kayak paddling the Apache 14, much happier rowing), sleeping on the boat, and aimed at a Solent trip across to Newtown and a sleep aboard.  

The focus on rowing is that here in the western Solent, the greatest threat I face is no wind, a strong tide and being swept through Hurst Narrows. I think i might also enjoy a winter row out and around Keyhaven River.

I would be too scared to sail a 30" wide canoe across the Solent - that's just me being a wimp. Here's John's quote on the new Nautilus planned stability, "I'm aiming for stability such that a normal weight person could stand on her gunwale alongside a jetty and not put the rail under".

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?134468-New-Welsford-Design-Nautilus-sailing-Canoe

Walkabout looks to be a very special design - Osbert's pictures are amazing from the Scottish Raid. It's just that I need to sit as still as possible, no head ducking and swivelling around, in a boat with really good stability, hence starting with the heavier Nautilus type.

I would love to own both Katie and Nautilus. It's wonderful two new designs for home build sailing canoes have become available. Lets celebrate!!!

Brian

[Anders]

That looks really interesting.
I would like to follow the build if you are going to make a blog or something. O even better, post photos, comments here.
This little but nice forum needs action......

[Anders]

That looks really interesting.
I would like to follow the build if you are going to make a blog or something. O even better, post photos, comments here.
This little but nice forum needs action......

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Brian,
This looks pretty much like horses for courses.
If I was planning to sail in the Western Solent I'd want to know I could handle every eventuality. That can include a pretty fierce chop as well as strong tidal currents. Nautilus should have the stability and buoyancy to cope and as you point out you also need the power to get out of trouble if the wind drops.

I'm sure you remember and a few others might be interested to learn that a few years ago one of the Round the World Yacht races was finishing in Southampton. The boats had the choice of going the long way round the island or coming through Hurst Narrows and up the Solent. One of the leaders took the short-cut, the wind inevitably dropped just as the tide turned and he spent hours going absolutely nowhere sailing against the tide.

I'm not sure when a canoe becomes a rowing skiff, maybe when you turn round and face the other way, still I'm sure she will be very capable. I'll look forward to seeing her on the water.
Graham

[BrianP]

FLo-MO has been creating some 3D renderings of Nautilus and has now added the rig and foils.









 http://flo-mo.weebly.com/

[Michael Rogers]

One of you sailing canoeists should try junk rig, at least for the main. Better to windward, fiendish off the wind, reefing a doddle.....need I go on? You know it makes sense - which it does, except that for some reason people don't get the message..........(sigh)

There is a small book 'Design and build your own junk rig" by Derek van Loan. As a whole it's out of date in content and pedantic and opinionated in style (in a way the classic "Practical Junk Rig" never is), but  the final chapter is about sailing canoes.

Seriously, with a CF mast, aluminium battens and a modern camber panel sail, a junk rigged sailing canoe would be a flyer. As for those Keyhaven calms (I remember them well!), as a competitive oarsman in my younger days the thought of a sliding thwart and (folding) outriggers in a slim 15 footer is very appealing. Go for it!

Michael

[gregandginas]

I've linked the comment about the Junk Rig to the OCSG Facebook page: responses will doubtless appear in time.

Glancing quickly through... Junk rigs don't appear to figure in Todd Bradshaw's "Canoe Rig: the essense and the art".  Few of his comments on the wooden boat forum appear to offer any more encouragement....

[dschin]

does someone have contactinfos (email, tel) of flo-mo?

I´m also from vienna and wanna get in contact


hannes

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi
Todd doesn't specifically mention the Junk Rigg but he does have what he calls a Chinese Style balanced Lug Sail on pages 39 and 253 which come close in sail shape and battening.

The main difference would seem to be the main-sheet, and I'm really not sure I'd want the complexity of a Junk main-sheet on a sailing canoe. The lines would have to fall way aft and then be brought forward to where the helmsman could handle them.

Cheers Graham

[BrianP]

I agree, a battened lug rig is very close to a junk rig without the leach lines. The boom is quite low on the sailing canoes with yawl rigs, and it's designed to swing in front of the helmsman. Thus if there were junk rig leach lines coming from the back edge they would easily snag on the helmsman. Just what you don't need in a gybe.  Brian

[Chris Waite]

Ah, Michael Michael

I fear I feel an acute contra-grump coming on; likely I'm a case of terminal 'Sailplan Affective Disorder'.

I'll accept a lot of things from a chap of your obvious experience and who loves Thames barges as much as more than I do, but the Chinese lug being "Better to windward"?  Better than what....

A knotted hanky?

I would point out that a 'camber panel sail' is what I assume the uninitiated out here would call a 'fully battened main', or maybe it is some missing link?

Go on, give me a run for my money

Chris

[gregandginas]

A bit of feedback via the OCSG Facebook pages....

Keith and Dave clearly struggle to see a good reason for going for a Junk Rig now that they've cracked having a Bermudan that furls around the mast... but apparently Robert Biegler used to sail with a Junk Rig... and with a "hapa": an "anti-leeway device" that's "a bit like a kite but 'flown' underwater on strings".





Those photos are apparently from Aug 2000.

[Michael Rogers]

Chris

Being objective, I suppose I do grump a bit, don't I? I do try not to, hence the attempt at a quiet sigh rather than a full on hhrrrrumph. I do sooo enjoy talking (and tapping-a-keyboard-with-two-fingers) about boats, and wouldn't want to be irritating on sailing subjects. The occasional gentle wind-up (that's 'wind' to rhyme with 'find'), or responding to one from someone else, on the other hand.....

My suggestion was 'better to windward' than the lugsail on the plans for the new Nautilus. Emphatically yes. I speak from experience of both rigs. Incidentally, a junk rigged yacht by the name of 'Poppy' is likely to win the Cowes Week Round-the-Island race in the next few years, which will partly be down to her remarkable windward ability.

Do you need any suggestions as to what you might usefully do with your knotted hanky?

Re the camber panel sail, no, it's more than just fully battened. A conventional junk sail is cut with flat panels (a panel being the chunk of sail between adjacent battens); that is to say, the panels are cut and sewn without built-in curvature. Therefore any aerofoil-type effect depends largely on the whole sail curving, and some (not too much) bendiness of the battens is beneficial. The most important recent development in junk sail design - leading to better performance upwind (downwind takes care of itself) - has been to make the panels with individual built in camber, so that the sail as a whole is a stack of fairly narrow aerofoils divided by the (preferably rigid) battens. It is usual to decrease the degree of camber going up the sail, so that as the wind freshens and panels are reefed, the remaining sail becomes flatter as a whole. THAT is the 'camber panel sail' of which I spoke/wrote.

Sorry, I should perhaps have launched into all that to make clear what I was on about. Believe it or not, I am aware that I can be a tad tedious on junk rig, given the sort of half chance which you gave me. You did ask!

The mention (by several people) of sheeting arrangements as a potential problem is well made, but I'm sure could be overcome in a sailing canoe. Control of the leech right up the sail is one of the reasons why a junk sail will drive a boat to windward rather better than a knotted hanky (or a lugsail, or most gaff and gunter rigs). Extending the topmost sheeted batten (usually the second from the top) by up to a foot beyond the edge of the sail is helpful. There is only one sheet, not several! If the various components of the sheet are led to several blocks (or a single double or triple block) at the stern (probably on a short horse to avoid fouling the steering), it's actually very handy for the the hauling part to be led forward to the helming position. "Cadenza", my junk-rigged 14 footer, has a canoe stern and about 3 1/2 feet of after deck, so in that respect she is like a somewhat tubby sailing canoe (as she is in her innate tenderness!).

Is that a sufficient run for your money, Chris?

[Anders]

Just a simple question on junk rigs.

Dont you have to step the main further back in the boat? or could you use the same mast step/partner?
 The junk rigs I´ve seen have a much larger overlap than a balanced lug.

[Michael Rogers]

Anders

It's a simple question, but the answer(s) can get a bit involved! Apologies if you know all this, and I will attempt a Polonius (ie be brief). There are also some possible specific sailing canoe issues which hadn't occurred to me.

Theoretically the position of the mast is important, and has to do with the centre(s) of effort (CE) of the sail(s), of Lateral Resistance (CLR) of the hull, and the horizontal distance between them or 'lead' (as in Kindly Light, not Pb). Lead relates to such things as rig balance, ie weather or lee helm etc. In a keel boat the CLR, being determined by the underwater hull shape, is fairly fixed. With a centreboard boat, it can be varied according to the position of the board, and also (to an extent which isn't an issue, by and large, with keel boats) by the distribution of the weight of the helmsman plus crew. Junk rigged keel boats seem to develop increased weather helm the further off the wind one sails. I have not found this a problem in my little boat, probably for the reasons given below.

Application of junk rig to low displacement and centreboard boats is relatively recent: I'm not the first, but there aren't many of us - yet. It works very well indeed, and because the CLR is easily varied in a dinghy, mast position needn't be a critical issue. By way of illustration, I am building a Swallow Boats Trouper 12 dinghy for which I have designed a junk rig, based on my experience with Cadenza and lots of advice from the real junk rig experts. The Swallow Boats design allows for two mast positions, a forward one for a standing lugsail, and one about 6 ins further aft for a gunter rig. When I asked Chris Scanes (a sailmaker in Topsham, Devon, who designs and makes junk sails), he advised that the difference was of no consequence because of the adjustments (of position in boat and of the board) one would make anyway. So I am going for the forward one, because sheeting arrangements, aft of the sail, will be that much easier.

In the sailing canoe context, it occurs to me that the scope for adjustment of CLR by moving around in the boat may be a bit curtailed. How much can one move ones weight (or combined weight if two up) fore and aft while sailing? If not much, or not at all, it might be worth being a bit more careful about mast position.

The amount of overlap (sail ahead of the mast) of a junk sail, interestingly, doesn't seem to be very critical. Do lug rig designers give this lots of thought(I ask because I don't know!)? 10 - 15% of total sail area seems about the norm, but it can be less or more than that in effective rigs. Roughly speaking, it seems to be about the same as used for a standing lugsail. Incidentally, rule of thumb when converting to junk rig is that total sail area should be increased by 10% or so.

A short PS, if I may, to my comments above. Chris, overnight reflection leads me to believe that the first step in overcoming your distressing complaint (Sail-design Affective Disorder) is to work towards achieving a Sail-design Effective Diagnosis. I hope I may have made a small contribution to that. Meanwhile, dry those tears with your knotted hanky. You may un-knot first, although you will go even less efficiently upwind if you do so.

[simplesimon]

Anders wrote

Dont you have to step the main further back in the boat? or could you use the same mast step/partner?
 The junk rigs I´ve seen have a much larger overlap than a balanced lug.

Normally you wouldn't want the mast any further back than puts 20% of the sail in front of it, be that for a battenned or unbattenned lug. Any more than that, and the sheeting loads may be too light to maintain proper control.

The only exception may be with a split junk rig (as on Poppy) where Slieve (the owner) says that for the next sail he'll try 25%. Personally I think that may be overdoing it, as on most airfoils (which is what a sail is) the aerodynamic centre of effort is around 25% from the leading edge. We shall see.

Simon

[Chris Waite]

You misunderstand me Michael

Both the 'Contra' and the 'Grump' are entirely mine.  You made a perfectly reasonable statement regarding junk rig; which I have chosen to disagree with, because I am a difficult old fart.  Your experience has guided you toward the genre and for my part I have to say that the gaff dory a chum and I built, went slower once he had fulfilled his dreams of the Folkboat 'Jester' and converted to a junk rig with a greater area on it.

It also had more string than a gaggle of chandlers' shops; how do you do things that people like to do, like control the twist in the sail if the sheet is one piece with multiple strops to the ends of all the lower battens?  Then there are all those little extra lines to prevent the battens riding fore and aft relative to each other, or whatever it is they do.  From the terminology and your explanation, I understand the concept of individual cambered panels - are the battens always all horizontal like 'Jester' rather than fanned up toward the peak?  You wouldn't consider that a lug sail is just one big cambered panel without all that extra stuff would you?  It seems to me that it is an awful lot of fiddling around to end up with something that isn't as smooth and therefore as aerodynamic as a simple sail.  The obvious advantage is ease of reefing, but if that is the deciding factor, then how about the Paradox roller-reefing boom?    

I'm guessing that simply eating my knotted hanky won't be sufficient then?

CW

[Anders]

Thanks Michael and Simon

So to sum up and continue the thread, how would you design a junk rig for the Nautilus? Would you use the same mast position and the same amount of overlap? And if not, what would you do.

I love all aspects of sailing and sails are one of my favorite ones. When I was a kid, some 12-13 years old, at least before the weird age when things start to grow out of control, I made a lot of little sailboats. I read everything I could find on the library and I roughed out the hull in polyspam, made rudders and keels with lead weights. My mother gave me some fine cloth and using her sewing machine I made my own sail with panels etc.
The good ones, I let sail. I found their balance point and let them sail away. The pleasure of seing my creation beating to winward and disappear was bigger than the feel of loss. I taught me a lot of important things in life which I use a lot now.
BTW, I have the practical junk rig book.