tony nichols

[eatmywash]

Hi Tony here

Just making enquiries about possibly converting my 14' canoe to take a sail, is there a definitive area to place the mast. I rather like the american cat boat arrangement, mast set well forward is this possible. Is it also possible to cut and fit a centre board, one that can be withdrawn and stowed. I would appreciate any information given, or alternativly see one that has been done. My location is Kent my postcode is Da i am only a few miles from the Dartford crossing, anyone local to me who wants to view my canoe and give me any good tips, please get in touch. By the way is anyone going to the boat show at exel, I will be going on Sunday and hope to get some information on varnishing over epoxy resin. Not really a lot at the show for us wood buffs, but its a day out, and i get to travel for free. Regards Tony aka eatmywash

[Paul H (admin)]

Epoxy over varnish?  Ahh this is a killer problem.

You have to let the epoxy harden thoroughly (weeks at winter temperatures) and then wash the amine blush off. Then you can varnish.

If you varnish fresh epoxy it will stay tacky and take weeks/months to dry. A few of us have found that out the hard way, myself included.

cheers
Paul

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Tony,
There are a few Canoe Sailors around here, I'm sure its modesty that's keeping them quiet.

Basically the centre of effort of the rig, i.e. centre of area, needs to be above, or very slightly in front of the centre of lateral resistance, i.e, the centreboard or leeboard.

Have a look at Paul Fishers sailing canoe designs,  http://www.selway-fisher.com/Sailcanoe.htm
or Solway Dory  http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/

click on my blog below and have a look at Polythene Pam for how to do it on he cheap.

be warned,once bitten...........

cheers Graham.

[Port-Na-Storm]

Tony,
Some further thoughts;
If I had a classic cold moulded canoe I'd think long and hard about cutting a hole in it to fit a centreboard.
The alternative is to use a lee board which clips on the gunwales.  To be effective the lee board has to lie parallel to the centreline of the boat which means it probably has to be just ahead of amidships.

To get the centre of effort there means your sail will be right where you don't want it.

Never fear! The good news is that in order to over come this problem you can have two sails, one at the front and another, mizzen at the back, nearly all the old sailing canoes had this configuration.
Here's a photo of Chris Perkins' Scotch Mist to show you how.



For all you need to know and how to build it I can recommend;
 Canoe Rig, the essence and the art, by Todd E Bradshaw.

Cheers Graham

   

[Peter Nobes]

Hi Tony and everyone.

I'm not far from Dartford - I'm in Charlton SE7.  I've built 2 sailing canoes, both with leeboards and ketch rigs.  The second one is a SF Christine which I adapted for sailing by putting in bulkheads and decks.  I worked out where the masts and leeboard should be for optimum balance, mainly from information on Solway Dory's site and from Todd Bradshaw's book "Canoe Rig."

I'm thinking of going to the Boat Show tomorrow.  You're right, here isn't much for wood buffs there - last time I went there were so many fibreglass motor yachts my daughter said we'd crossed over to the Dark Side - but there's always the Guinness stand...

Best
Peter

[eatmywash]

Hi Graham

 

Yes i did have many doubts about doing this and think your advice confirrms them. I might just use as desigened with plus the exrra oomph of a small electric outboard. I know, and have been offered two i can borrow just to try out, i can even borrow a battery with one of them, I do not know how much you know about canoes, but do you think mine could be a one off, it is 14' and takes two to paddle and even has its own floor boards. They are only two shaped pieces of 3mm ply, but are secured by four period clips and look original. I still cannot decide whether to paint or varnish it either way i will re varnish the interior. I have been told there are two canoes very similar to mine up on the thames, but are 20 footers, they belong to some club. I have been told they are also many years old. The chap whos name plate is on mine had a lot to do with the starting of the club, i believe it is in Richmond. Maybe he only ever built them to order, i believe back in the day it was quite an expensive way of building, but saying that what a beautiful shape you can achive with this method. I did once own a Stapley runabout( race hull) made of five 2mm plys this was extreamly strong, and was built for sea racing, the trouble being once damaged they are a beast to repair. Yet again thats half the fun if it did not challenge me i would not be interested. If things change in the future i may even sell my little dory to make way for a home build, i just do not have space at present. I am very happy to be accepted into this forum as my canoe is recieving a lot of work it is not a true seltf build i look forward to more imput from you all, and hope to meet in the coming months. regards Tony aka eatmywash

 

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tony,
Some further thoughts;
If I had a classic cold moulded canoe I'd think long and hard about cutting a hole in it to fit a centreboard.
The alternative is to use a lee board which clips on the gunwales.  To be effective the lee board has to lie parallel to the centreline of the boat which means it probably has to be just ahead of amidships.

To get the centre of effort there means your sail will be right where you don't want it.

Never fear! The good news is that in order to over come this problem you can have two sails, one at the front and another, mizzen at the back, nearly all the old sailing canoes had this configuration.
Here's a photo of Chris Perkins' Scotch Mist to show you how.



For all you need to know and how to build it I can recommend;
 Canoe Rig, the essence and the art, by Todd E Bradshaw.

Cheers Graham

   

Port-Na-Storm

http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/

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[eatmywash]

Hi Peter

 

I am nearer than you think, i only live in Welling and as you know that is only over the hill from you, i have a brother that lives there. ( this does not mean i am over the hill!!). I would be interested in seeing your boats, if you keep them on home turf. Mine is in the garage next to my dory plus my sons motorbike, and my push bike. As you can see not a lot of room although i move things outside when i need space, just not had the weather of late. Before seeing my canoe for sale i was going to get plans for the SF Medway doble and go with that, but could not resist the canoe once i saw photos( you know how it is) love at first site. I am turning into a serial boat restorer and do not spend that amount of time on the water, i have restored 4 already. That was the reason for buying a plastic one, then the canoe appeared and i started all over again. I have in fact done a lot to the dory and its trailer, and would still like to do more. I do like my craft to look good, but that takes time and money, and its easy to run out of both. Perhaps you could let me know what the show is like if you are going the day before me we are in part going for the outdoor show which they have this year farmers market etc, thats the only way i can get the other half to go. Thanks for your input hope to hear from you soon. Regards Tony aka eatmywash 

 

 

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Peter Nobes [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Tony and everyone.

I'm not far from Dartford - I'm in Charlton SE7.  I've built 2 sailing canoes, both with leeboards and ketch rigs.  The second one is a SF Christine which I adapted for sailing by putting in bulkheads and decks.  I worked out where the masts and leeboard should be for optimum balance, mainly from information on Solway Dory's site and from Todd Bradshaw's book "Canoe Rig."

I'm thinking of going to the Boat Show tomorrow.  You're right, here isn't much for wood buffs there - last time I went there were so many fibreglass motor yachts my daughter said we'd crossed over to the Dark Side - but there's always the Guinness stand...

Best
Peter

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[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Tony,
I don't know much about canoes, but these guys at the Historic Canoe and Kayak Association do,
http://www.hcka.org.uk

It would be worthwhile making contact and sending a couple of Photos.

Tyne Folding Kayaks were all the rage for a while and are very well known.

I've had a go at Cold Moulding at Lyme Regis Boat Building School.  A pretty complex mould, which its-self is not unlike a strip planked hull, has to be built for the laminates to be moulded over. The mould can be used many times but is a major work up for a one off so i would guess Tyne intended to build a fair few.

The laminates are held onto the mould with hundreds of staples while the glue goes off. They then all have to be extracted before the second diagonal layer goes on.

This is the dinghy we worked on, I think we were laying the third or fourth layer of laminate. Every course added a few more strips, its probably four inches thick by now.

That's Jack Chippendale in the background with the bunnet on. I think he was in his eighties then and he's still running courses on lofting from his home now.  

[Timmo]

Hi Tony.

I'm back on broadband and able to catch up on the increasingly busy HBBR exchanges.

Really enjoying the new voices on the site!

Just to add to Graham's excellent leeboard suggestion. The other advantage of the leeboard is that there is some degree of adjustability. You can rig the sail then experiment to find the optimum position for the leeboard. While it must be parallel with the centreline and that is most easily achieved by placing it amidships, it could be rigged with integral wedges to compensate for the curve of the gunwhale if you do want to place it further forward to balance a cat rig. Just be sure it's not out of reach!

I'd agree that slicing into a healthy cold moulded hull could be sacriligious. Having said that, did you say it was already rotting along the keel? If so integrating a centre or dagger board case into the repair work would make more sense. If you can experiment with a leeboard first you can find the ideal location before committing to the actual centreboard (even if the experiments are conducted with temporary repairs of the hull with gaffer tape!)

Having said all that, these days I'm a theoretical canoe sailor. Graham is one who does it! There are others out there as you will see if you flick through the photo albums on the HBBR's legacy files on Yahoo.

One option I'm pondering for one of my canoes is a rig for sailing downwind and on a reach. Most of my canoeing is done on rivers and there's rarely good space for tacking so you might as well paddle if heading upwind on a river. Got to get some exercise. Avoiding the issues of trying to sail close hauled and tacking should make the rig easier to create.

Tim.

[BrianP]

Hi Tony, I enjoy canoe sailing very much, but it can bite you on the bum if your not careful. They key issue is not to have too much sail area set for the winds you are sailing in. These narrow waterline craft are pushed along very easily, so do not need much sail area anyway.

An open canoe will also be subject to substantial racking (twisting) forces from the rig. I was amazed how much my open MacGregor hull distorted when reaching on the wind. Another reason for keeping to a moderate sail area.

Solway Dory are very helpful with any amount of advice and will supply you with good well designed kit if you wanted to buy gear. Their new Expedition Rig would be perfect for your canoe.

http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/canoe-sailing-rigs/the-expedition-rig-/

and a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YWbFUwVJ-0&feature=player_embedded

note the rig uses a clip over leeboard, again perfect for your canoe.

Other options are a secondhand optimist rig, or if you wanted to make your own sail and spars, something like this 3m sail might be good. It was designed using the free software SailCut4.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Bi31ixDF93M2I0NWY3ZGItYTBkNC00OGJiLWE2NmUtZmFhODkxM2UzM2Jl&hl=en

and the panels themselves

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B4Bi31ixDF93NGZmODFkZjQtMjg2NS00YzdmLWFhODQtNmJiMzM3NjFjOTc2&hl=en

I would not place the rig in the bows, unless you were also having a mizzen to balance the sailplan. With an opi rig set in a 14' hull i would have the mast about 4' back from the bow, the leeboard about 6' back and the front edge of your seat about midpoint.

hope this helps.

Bye the way, Solway are currently putting a lovely cedar and ash deck on one of their hulls and writing it up on facebook. You can watch along here

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Solway-Dory/116879172422

The Open Canoe Sailing Group have lots of information and their new website is here

http://www.ocsg.org.uk/

Shooting along so sweetly and easily is terrific fun, so press on and enjoy.

[Forthsailoar]

Tony

If you fancy a balanced lug ketch rig - nice and traditional - I might sell mine. The sails are by solway dory and in excellent condition, and the spars are wood. Can't remember what type, but it was what was recommended - douglas fir? Lovely straight grain and iirc, expensive!

Open to realistic offers, taking account of solway dory's current sail prices.

Photo and info here:
http://forthsailoar.osbert.org/im-selling-my-sailing-canoe

Never sold the whole package - probably asking too much!

Cheers

Osbert

[eatmywash]

Hi Graham

Have emailed hcka and sent off photos, am awaiting a reply. Thanks for the info. Re the cold moulding you have done in the past if i go ahead and varnish the canoe, and am not happy with it (the wood itself is showing its age through what i have done). I was thinking i might lay a complete other layer of ply this will give me a nice new base to work with, only draw back is it might look to new with this done. Anyway i will go with the sanding down of the original ply, and giving it several coats of a good quility varnish. I have done several boats before, but never used two pack varnish do you think this is the way to go, have you used this yourself. regards Tony

[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Tony, let us know what you find out about your canoe.

I'm no expert on cold moulding, but I do know its tricky to get right unless you've had some practice.
You'd need to source single veneers at around 1-2mm thick.  Getting the strips to sidle up to one another involves making a parallel gauge and spileing each strip onto its partner.

You'd also have to think how the new layer would fit into existing stems, gunwales and keel.

Personally, unless the wood is structurally unstable I'd let the canoe tell its own story.

Replace the rotten bits, repair the broken bits, don't epoxy the outside unless you really think it needs it, then   varnish it all using something like Le Tonkinoise, or Varnol, which smell great and don't go off in the pot.

People have even been known to use B&Q Decking Oil or so i've heard!  

Have Fun. Graham    

[eatmywash]

Hi Graham

 

Must admit i have more or less come round to your way of thinking, all my good intentions would probably mean alot more work plus not to mention the cash. I do not want to spend excess of either of these. Think i will go the epoxy the very bottom where there are repairs just to make sure it is perfectly sealed route. Varnish everything above with as many coats as i can with a good quaility varnish, as you say if done as is the boats age will show through, there is obviously age marks, but apart from one repair hole most of the stains/marks are probably below the water line. One more thing i have not mentioned, and i do not know if you or any one out there has come across this before, but i have a few worm holes in one gunwhale, i would assume that it has never been treated so will have to treat it before any other coating i may do. One thwart is very bad and the worm is definately active as i can remove it, bang it hard and the tell tale dust falls out. This is not a problem as i have already made a replica from Douglas fir, i will obviously disgard the original. I will run my theory past you, if i treat it with a rentokill type product (there are 43 holes in total) sounds a lot, but there are many more in the smaller thwart. I would then inject epoxy into all of the holes to seal them for good. The outer keel band that i have removed was the worst affected, but as it is now missing it no longer presents a problem. The thing is i believe the keel was Ash, and the gunnels are, i believe Douglas fir so neither is a true hard wood. The laminates are definately of good quility marine ply, but are thankfully unaffected. I woul like any advice given . Regards Tony

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Tony, let us know what you find out about your canoe.

I'm no expert on cold moulding, but I do know its tricky to get right unless you've had some practice.
You'd need to source single veneers at around 1-2mm thick.  Getting the strips to sidle up to one another involves making a parallel gauge and spileing each strip onto its partner.

You'd also have to think how the new layer would fit into existing stems, gunwales and keel.

Personally, unless the wood is structurally unstable I'd let the canoe tell its own story.

Replace the rotten bits, repair the broken bits, don't epoxy the outside unless you really think it needs it, then   varnish it all using something like Le Tonkinoise, or Varnol, which smell great and don't go off in the pot.

People have even been known to use B&Q Decking Oil or so i've heard!  

Have Fun. Graham    

Port-Na-Storm

http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/

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[eatmywash]

Hi Graham

 

Have joined the hcka seems a good idea, they know of Tyne boats and have mentioned them before in there write ups, Once i am a full member perhaps i can find out more. Have been looking at a couple of varnishes/oils, mainly Varnol & le tonkonaise am looking to find out which of these is the better. On there litreture they look much the same, but would like to hear from someone who has used these, and can recomend one. Regards tony

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Tony, let us know what you find out about your canoe.

I'm no expert on cold moulding, but I do know its tricky to get right unless you've had some practice.
You'd need to source single veneers at around 1-2mm thick.  Getting the strips to sidle up to one another involves making a parallel gauge and spileing each strip onto its partner.

You'd also have to think how the new layer would fit into existing stems, gunwales and keel.

Personally, unless the wood is structurally unstable I'd let the canoe tell its own story.

Replace the rotten bits, repair the broken bits, don't epoxy the outside unless you really think it needs it, then   varnish it all using something like Le Tonkinoise, or Varnol, which smell great and don't go off in the pot.

People have even been known to use B&Q Decking Oil or so i've heard!  

Have Fun. Graham    

Port-Na-Storm

http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/

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[Port-Na-Storm]

Hi Tony, sorry for the delay but I've been away for a few days.

I've used Le Tonkinoise on my Whilly Tern.  I can recommend it. Its very easy to use, no rubbing down between coats, smells great and seems to be quite soft and elastic once dry which means it doesn't chip or flake. You can get it from here http://www.tradboats.com/paintvarnish.html



I haven't used Varnol but have it on very good authority from a prize winning boat builder, and have seen the evidence with my own eyes that it truly does the trick.



Other will have their own views on what is best.

Cheers Graham
 

[eatmywash]

Hi Graham

 

Thanks for reply, no nearer a decision on what one to use, but have plenty of time to decide later. Have almost finished keel band, ended up slicing through at the ends just to give it a chance in the steaming process, this seems to have done the trick. . Have been reading on forum about the raid, apart fron this would the Norfolk meet be the best place to meet other people, or can you go to Beale park for the day and get afloat. Went there years ago quite liked it, but i believe it took over from the one at Greenwich which is a shame as i am only 10 minutes from there. Have recieved two copies of the hcka journal, and am now a member will be asking about the Tyne brand of which they are aware. Will keep you posted. Cheers Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Tony, sorry for the delay but I've been away for a few days.

I've used Le Tonkinoise on my Whilly Tern.  I can recommend it. Its very easy to use, no rubbing down between coats, smells great and seems to be quite soft and elastic once dry which means it doesn't chip or flake. You can get it from here http://www.tradboats.com/paintvarnish.html



I haven't used Varnol but have it on very good authority from a prize winning boat builder, and have seen the evidence with my own eyes that it truly does the trick.



Other will have their own views on what is best.

Cheers Graham

 

Port-Na-Storm

http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/

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[Port-Na-Storm]

Tony, Barton Turf is definitely the place to meet up with other builders, get afloat and have a good time.

Beale Park is also very worth a visit and most of us will be there at some time over the weekend especially Sunday, but you can't just pitch up and launch your boat. The lake is really reserved for exhibitors to demo their boats, and the odd display by other clubs like the Old Gaffers Trailer Section, Dinghy Cruising Association, Thames Trad, etc.

Those of us going on the Thames Raid will probably launch into the lake and then go out through the cut to the Thames, even if we only hide round the corner till Monday.

Cheers Graham.

 

[eatmywash]

 

Hi Graham

 

If going on raid what sort of equipment is usually taken, apart from the obvious tent/ sleeping bag / outdoor clothing etc. What do people do about food, toilet facilities and personal like that, must say it sounds a bit of an adventure. Has there only been one before, and how many are you expecting this time, i take it anything that sails or paddles is welcome. cheers Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] <ml-node+2423340-

 

 

[hidden email]> wrote:

Tony, Barton Turf is definitely the place to meet up with other builders, get afloat and have a good time.

Beale Park is also very worth a visit and most of us will be there at some time over the weekend especially Sunday, but you can't just pitch up and launch your boat. The lake is really reserved for exhibitors to demo their boats, and the odd display by other clubs like the Old Gaffers Trailer Section, Dinghy Cruising Association, Thames Trad, etc.

Those of us going on the Thames Raid will probably launch into the lake and then go out through the cut to the Thames, even if we only hide round the corner till Monday.

Cheers Graham.

 

Port-Na-Storm

http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/

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[Timmo]

Hi Tony.

Only really been one HBBR raid, though there have been some other trips made by smaller groups.

This time round 17 people in 15 boats have expressed interest. There may be more yet to come and some may not make it so numbers still fluctuating.

The research we're doing now into possible campsites will determine what facilities there will be at each overnight stop. Our aim is to ensure (as a minimum) fresh water and toilet facilities. If possible we'll try and arrange electric power for those who need recharging and shower facilities will also be appreciated, though they may not be there every night (bring a sponge.)

People tend to aim for self sufficiency, each boat equips itself for overnights (whether aboard or ashore) and does it's own catering, so they have their own food and cooking equipment. That's not to say people can't link up nearer the day to share such things if they wish. 

As the event approaches I expect a few people will post their equipment list. It's always good to be reminded of things (toilet paper, pan scrubber, lighter/matches, etc.!) No matter how many times I do this I always forget something.

We have boats that sail (though it won't be possible to sail all the time, so some alternative propulsion will be needed) row, paddle, scull (with yuloh,) pedal (mirage drive,) electric motor and outboard motor. It's an eclectic group and it should be a great trip.

If you haven't browsed it yet it could be worth looking at the HBBR Thames Raid thread on the forum.

Tim.

Tony Nichols wrote

If going on raid what sort of equipment is usually taken, apart from the obvious tent/ sleeping bag / outdoor clothing etc. What do people do about food, toilet facilities and personal like that, must say it sounds a bit of an adventure. Has there only been one before, and how many are you expecting this time, i take it anything that sails or paddles is welcome. cheers Tony