MilliBee with a haircut?

[Anders]

I´dd keep the cabin and make some slightly higher backrests for the cockpit. The she´ll start looking cozy as well

[Chris Waite]

Here we go then

I strongly disagree with cocking the bowsprit up any more than minimally - an extension of the line of the king plank is fine, (like 'Tit Willow' of course).  Otherwise she will look like a leftover from a Disney pirate ship - naffus extremabilis.  Here, on the other hand, is a real bowsprit - beautiful:

http://www.tallshipsandsmallships.com/pages/fishingboats/04_largest.htm

CeeDub

[Jeremy]

I agree that it shouldn't be cocked up above the natural line of the sheer, but the Falmouth Working Boat's not that great an example, IMHO.  Many of the older boats have enormous bowsprits, added purely to set a few hundred sq ft of extra sail for summer racing (it's rare to set a big jib or yankee when dredging, every time I've been out dredging we've used just the main, often scandalised to keep the speed and power down).  One result is that some end up looking like corkscrews, twisted and bent all over the place.  I've always thought that the tendency for some of the boats to have the bob stay wound up too tight, pulling the end of the bow sprit down looks plain wrong.

[Chris Waite]

Hmmm!

I've just looked through John Leather's two volumes of 'Inshore Craft of Great Britain, in the days of Sail and Oar' and the whole bang-Shermuly have bowsprits that are either level or, very very slightly raised to follow a minimal shear.  That is apart from the North East Coble where the shear is really, really marked and the bowsprit continues up into the ether; weird, though it probably keeps the sail out of the rollers when launching or beaching off a steep beach.

Infact there is one (?Sussex) beach punt where the short bumpkin like this, actually points down at some twenty degress and the foot of the associated sail lies well below the stem head.  This is actually a working spar, not a cartoon addition and for reasons of trailing and space in general, it does as well to keep it as short as possible, cocking it up (!?) reduces the length available for the headsail luff; Oh-Wayfaring-Genoa.

The next thing is that to follow the 'king' (foredeck central) plank is the simplest and strongest fit, no scarfing or chocking required....

 

 

With all his deadeye detail Wayne mounts his bowsprit level, not like this last which is actually a mock-up made for the film 'Pirates' with Walter Matthau

Nil stuffery aboutum

CW  

[Paul H (admin)]

Who would have thought a bowsprit was so contentious!

Thanks to everyone for all your opinions, I learned quite a lot.


I've decided to bolt it flush to the deck, otherwise it's a bugger trying to seal the bolt holes that will wake me up at stupid o'clock when the rain leaks on my head.

It will also be much stronger for when the skipper shouts "ramming speed" - I hate losing friendly races.

-Paul

[Paul H (admin)]

I gladly bought John's trailer - a great trailer with all the fittings I needed. But winching MilliBee onto the trailer today revealed a major cock-up on my part. The eagle eyed will notice she is sitting on the mudguards:



After a lot of fiddling about it dawned on me to check the axle width - 4ft 6in on the lovely new trailer but 5ft on the old trailer, plus the new trailer has superior and larger wheels. D'oh.

MilliBee is beamy at 6ft 2in so she needs to sit much higher to clear the mudguards. I can adjust the rollers higher but then she will sit higher on the trailer which defeats one of the reasons for chopping off the bilge cases.

Does anyone have any suggestions about how to resolve the problem?

-Paul

[Chris Waite]

Wider axle

Like it, or not

CW

[Port-Na-Storm]

I have to agree, the extra height required to get Millibee up above the wheels will make her harder to launch, as she'll need to be in much deeper water.

I take it the two double rollers which seem to be on the actual axle will go out-board of the bilge boards to provide some stability?

I know your old trailer doesn't have any mudguards, how much clearance do you have if you take them off?  
G

[Jeremy]

You may find that you can just move the mudguards outwards and still have them cover the wheels OK.  Trailer mudguards often seem to be far wider than they really need to be, I've found.  The ones on my trailer are around twice the width of the tyres, whereas legally they only need to be the width of the tyre tread, I believe.

[Ratcatcherjohn]

Good morning Paul  
 
Lesson for today:-    " Do not buy dodgy trailers from `Rodent Entrapment Specialists`, particularly those from Yorkshire. "
 
That said -----  As we briefly discussed there is the rudimentary "Break Back "feature.  I would look at the possibility of using this in a controlled manner, i.e with a restricting chain or similar device.
You may even be able to combine this with a sliding chassis extension (possibly fabricated from bits of ` the trailer of dubious legality`), this would provide  a lower keel roller to get a start when recovering Millibee onto the trailer.  
 
I would also look carefully at the suspension travel, is there an opportunity to gain some clearance by removing a section of mudguard, whilst still retaining the required `spray suppression`??
 
Regards  John
 
PS I`m glad I have my bit of paper with "Sold as seen, inspected and accepted etc. ".  The old agricultural auctioneers would have also said   "with all its faults and inaccuracies of description,  as it stands, on it`s own, forever and a day!! ".  I will remember to add that when I sell you the next size up for a vastly inflated sum.  John.
 


   

[Timmo]

In addition to other suggestions you do mention the 'superior but larger wheels'. Is there any mileage in considering switching the wheels for your other inferior but smaller and evidently adequate in the past wheels?

Obviously depends if they fit the new hubs.

If they do fit it would further reduce the height for launching while also possibly (means switching mudguards as well) give you the clearance for the boat.

Tim


> After a lot of fiddling about it dawned on me to check the axle width - 4ft 6in on the lovely new trailer but 5ft on the old trailer, plus the new trailer has superior and larger wheels.

[Paul H (admin)]

Lots of useful suggestions to try - thanks chaps.

I had a long phone call with "Chris" from Snipe technical support this morning - he was very helpful. They could fabricate a sub-frame and wider axle - the sub-frame would bolt to the existing chassis for an eye watering £300 which is probably better spent on a new trailer. He mentioned they get a lot of problems with wheels sticking outside the boat, often from reversing and catching the wheel on some invisible but solid object that wrecks the rubber suspension units. So there is a compromise to strike between axle width and boat height.

Another option is bunks, which I would prefer to the point loading of the side rollers. Snipe also sell rollers and brackets so it might be possible to leave the first keel roller as low as possible for recovery purposes and add a higher keel roller on the axle (which currently does not have a roller). The plan being a slope up to the axle rollers then other rollers are horizontal at a height that clears the mudguards. The tilting roller sets for RIBs look useful and they'll spread the load over the weaker areas of 6mm ply.

Also the axle can move forwards - it's currently about 100mm behind MilliBee's old axle and I always thought she was a tad heavy at the towbar. So I'll move it 150mm forwards which will help the roller situation.

It's like Meccano as a kid - lots to adjust!  More rollers are good yes?

-Paul

[Paul H (admin)]

The winning reply is .....Tim's

The "worked well for 5 years" wheels fit perfectly and make a dramatic difference to the clearances:



I estimate 80mm extra vertical clearance and an extra 160mm horizontal clearance between the mudguards. Also the whole trailer will be 50mm lower.

So whilst the bigger wheels are ideal, needs must.

An adjustable keel roller is needed on the axle to ensure the keel V angle will always clear the mudguards. When the centreboard and keel runners are complete there will be roughly another 20mm vertical clearance.

cheers
Paul

[Ratcatcherjohn]

Paul    Just a thought:-  It may be wise to check that the smaller wheels have not reduced the 500Kg Gross on the axle plate.   John
 
PS I thought you wanted BIGGER wheels, I could have done a set of smaller ones for the same price and saved you the hassle of changing them  !!
 

[Paul H (admin)]

John,

I have a pair of the better quality small wheels rated at 335kg each, compared to 355kg each for the larger wheels. So well within the 500kg axle limit.

I'd prefer bigger wheels, but never realised the additional size would cause problems. With her bilge keels she would have fitted perfectly - maybe I got too used to the clearance with bilge keels.

-Paul

[Chris Waite]

"Wider axle - Like it, or not - CW"

.... or you could use smaller wheels

Just shows how much I know

CW  

[Paul H (admin)]

I've moved the axle forward 5in which somehow looks right....and there is plenty of room for a bowsprit.

I've emailed Snipe for a 4th keel roller bracket, planning to swap the rear with an 8in wide roller to ease recovery. Sent them a picture to help...they seem jolly helpful.

I'll put the side rollers slightly ahead of maximum beam....but at the rear they might stop her drifting sideways in a blow...the usual single handed paradox!

It's probably good to keep an inch or so of bilge keels as strong supports to keep her upright on trailer.

I feel like a kid with a big Meccano set - I love building things!

Paul

Sent from my HTC phone

[Ratcatcherjohn]

Good evening Paul          So far I am well relieved to hear it`s only big `Meccano` and there is no mention of gas axe or angle grinder / disc cutter.  Having seen what you did to the last trailer I found for you I was getting a bit apprehensive !!.
  Did you ask the Snipe man about the potential for using the `break back`?.   I think if it is acceptable to use that facility, even with restricted travel,  it would put a lot of stern in the water whilst keeping the bearings in the little wheels dry.
 
John
 
             

[Paul H (admin)]

It looks like I might have to give up with the trailer - with the side rollers at their widest point they don't clear the bilge keels:



Maybe I could trim the bilge keels some more.....but then I'd lose the ability to dry out flat?

What to you think chaps?

Paul

[Timmo]

Assume there isn't space to attach the rollers with longer U bolts and spacers to move them outboard a bit. Looks like just an inch each side would be enough in the picture but that could be misleading.

Maybe switch from rollers to bunks. They may suit Millibee's hull shape better. Bunks just inboard of the bilge keels, perhaps rests higher up and outboard to hold her steady. Not so easy to launch but potentially easier on the hull when on the road. You can get kits to replace bunks with rollers (http://www.angleseymarinesupplies.com/boat-trailer-rubbers.php) but they cost!

Keep going. It looks like a really nice substantial trailer, must be a way of making it work.

If you really have to give up let me know. I need another trailer sometime, though this one may be too short for Zelva.

Tim.

On 5 Jul 2012, at 22:53, adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> It looks like I might have to give up with the trailer - with the side rollers at their widest point they don't clear the bilge keels: