The Perfect River Raid Boat (PRRB)

[Paul H (admin)]

Just what it says on the tin. Discussion of the perfect raid boat for rivers and canals, specifically for an upper Thames Raid in 2012.

-Paul

[BrianP]

Could I ask you Thames Raid experienced guys - would this camping rowboat from Colin Angus be just the ticket for the next Raid. It seems to me she would but your experienced view would be much appreciated. She would be great for sleeping aboard anywhere rather than needing a planned camp site.







I think Colin Angus is planning to release plans in time.

Brian

[Timmo]

Hi Brian.

She's really ingenious with some great ideas there. Got a lot going for her.

Potential downside? 

Those that rowed the upper reaches a couple of years ago found following the winding course of the river while facing backwards awkward at times. It's not ideal rowing territory. A forward facing rowing system could help, though you still have width to contend with, means you couldn't practically use the boat on most canals for example which the boat could otherwise be well suited to. A pedal drive of some sort could resolve those issues (you knew I'd say that!) Looks like it could just about be paddled with a double bladed paddle too.

For coastal waters, estuaries, lakes and wider rivers she looks well suited.

Minor details? 

Would want a tent over the cockpit if that's where you have to cook. Also more of a wind guard for the stove.

Question?

Where are the outriggers during the day? If they're in the bed I'd be concerned about water and mud going into the cabin. Could be hard to dry out in prolonged wet weather since the stove is outside.

But, as I said, she's really ingenious and I'd like a set of the plans!

Tim

From: "BrianP [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 07:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tim O'Connor <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: To the 2011 Raid "Band of Brothers"

Could I ask you Thames Raid experienced guys - would this camping rowboat from Colin Angus be just the ticket for the next Raid. 

[Randonneur]

BrianP wrote

Could I ask you Thames Raid experienced guys - would this camping rowboat from Colin Angus be just the ticket for the next Raid. It seems to me she would but your experienced view would be much appreciated. She would be great for sleeping aboard anywhere rather than needing a planned camp site.

I've always fancied the earlier boat that they did the Scotland to Syria trip in, primarily because of the bicycle stowage and towing options. Perhaps a combination of the two with a pop up tent is the way forward.









http://angusrowboats.com/index.htm
http://www.angusadventures.com/rowedtrip.html

[Paul H (admin)]

BrianP,

To be brutal it's a non-starter for the English weather. Cooking and eating in persistent rain is horrible and as Tim and Pete said it needs a tent.

It will row very well, but going through locks with outriggers will be awkward - how will you get out alongside a mooring? Clearly its designed for the beach and I doubt the outrigger will take the weight of the skipper. I would fear a Chris Partridge moment!

Also you can't get in or out of the cabin in the rain without getting the bedding or floor wet.

Standard practice for live-aboards is a cabin like a pocket cruiser or a cuddy/tent to cover the entire cockpit.

A tent that covers all lockers and the full beam would fix the problems.

-Paul

[BrianP]

Thanks guys.  She is a coastal, inshore rower I think.

Fitted tent over the cockpit makes a lot of sense for our climate. A really dry bed, with reasonably protected cockpit would make a lot of sense.

Floats stow in cockpit or aft locker.

Bicycle towing is sorted already



Not sure about bicycle stowage. Folder in aft locker?

Folding outriggers as my son's Echo has would be a big help in locks etc.

http://www.echorowing.com/video.htm

Looking at the pictures of the outriggers and how they are mounted, it does look as if they could be made to hinge forwards to bring the oarocks close to the hull sides for traversing locks.

Some thoughts from Colin Angus on the design here, he joins on as "longrower".

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?131171-Camper-Rowboat-from-Angus-Rowboats&highlight=angus+rowboat


Brian

[Paul H (admin)]

I've moved the post-2011 Raid messages about raid boat design over to this topic - it keeps things neater.

[Chris Waite]

On the upper Thames you have to have an absolute picture of the river ahead of you as the banks loom inconsiderately and inordinately at every moment.

If you intend to row, this involves having a strigiform (owls - I had to look it up) neck or a big, big mirror.  Assuming your neck is even half as rigid as mine, then it's the mirror:



The problem with this is that you then spend most of your time studying it with extreme care as things are back to front and this in turn distracts you from enjoying the ambience of the occasion.  This is the penalty of rowing something you can live in and to me it's a big enough one to try and find another way; TimmO, I think this picture is yours - thanks:



The best way I found of minimizing moisture in your sodden floating home is to put the cover over first, then sponge dryish, then remove your foulies; all something of a struggle at the half-crouch, but this is fun, yes?  Square well away before you are ready to strike camp so that things are already stowed waterproof; whatever that means.  Here is a picture of a Solway Dory at the DCA Snow Hill Creek, Chichester Harbour meeting earlier this year, with (Rosie Mae partly disrobed behind her and) an overall cover that would suit the row/camping skiffs above; my apologies to the photographer but I do not have his name:



Count me in for Lechlade '12 please; Scotch Guard to the fore

Chris  

[BrianP]

The Solway Dory Shearwater that Chris showed in his post with the tent cover fixed, is a fantastic coastal Raid boat. Everything about it works really well for coastal expedition sailing. The guys from the OCSG have just had a trip around the Oban area.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIE2bo0c64&feature=player_embedded#at=23

However, something a bit lighter, simpler might suit the 2012 Thames Raid better.

I bought a 14' solo grp bare canoe hull to use as a mule to try ideas out on. The bare hulls are very cheap to buy.

I think it would be great to be able to sail, to row, to single paddle or to double paddle as the need arose.

Be light enough to lift singlehanded onto the roof rack.

I have an Opi rig which I think is about the right size and is very easy to stow with very short spars. I think I will steer the boat with an oar in an oarlock placed 4' back from the stern on the gunnel. In the style of the wonderful West Mersea Duck Punts.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58WnQZIU2eE
Actually - perhaps a Duck Punt would make a great Thames Raid boat? I have a set of plans - it would be wonderful to build a batch of the same jig as they do on the West Mersea - these are just about the coolest boats on teh planet.

I want to try to set up rowing it Adirondack Guide Boat style. I have 6', 7'10" and 10' oars to try.

I have a double kayak paddle so will use that. A single canoe paddle somewhere.

A bit small for sleeping on though?

Brian

[simplesimon]

Watching Chris setting off from Beale in the pouring rain, I said to myself "he needs a cockpit cover"!

The old-time canoeists used a combination cycle cape & cover that extended across the whole of the cockpit (and kept it dry) whilst leaving arms free for paddling. (Chris wouldn't need that last bit) OK it wouldn't work rowing with a sliding seat whether backward of forward facing, but it might well work with a fixed-rigger forward facing system, and of course would work happily with any of the pedal drives.

JMHO
Simon

[BrianP]

I have looked at the rowing possibilities for my 14' solo canoe hull this morning.

My short oars are 5'4" long and look to be perfect for rowing the canoe when placed on the hull which is about 32" wide. The handles just cross by a few inches which can be eliminated by moving the plastic collar slightly.

Bearing in mind I am trying to sail, row and paddle this canoe, do you experienced rowers think 5'4" oars on a narrow hull like this will be ok. These short oars stow nicely inside the hull cross stiffeners.

Planning on putting the seat 5" below the gunnel and oarlocks 11" back from the rear edge of the seat. Do these numbers sound ok?

Thanks, Brian.

[Paul H (admin)]

Chris P. will confirm the magic formula of 12in from rowlocks to b****cks .

I'm not sure about the seat depth but Tony told me the oar has to clear your knee caps on the back stroke with legs straight. So try it and see.

Chris also said to try different rowing positions until you find one that you can comfortably row all day - comfort is more important than speed. Chris can probably add some more detail.

-Paul

[BrianP]

I have been trying out things and also reading up on John Welsford's notes on fixed seat rowing on Rowing for Pleasure plus checking on Paul Gartside's Flashboat plans which I have.

The consensus seems to be seat 8" above heels, and rowlocks (bottom of the cup) 8" higher than the seat. This works out great for my hull which is 16" deep  - rowlock cup to hull floor.

Rowlocks to edge of seat varies from 11" to 13" and Paul Gartside says 12" so 12" it is.

JW says foot braces should be 16" apart so will use that. Footbrace to seat edge distance worked out at 28" when I tried a layout sitting on the steps. Paul Gartside Flashboat has his foot braces at 28 1/2" so that sounds about right for footbraces.

Just one final issue. Actual seat placement over the centre of buoyancy, for rowing, paddling and sailing.

For sailing Solway Dory advised, and they know these things, that the front edge of the seat should be at the hull mid point, and since it's a 14' symetrical hull then the front seat edge will be 7' back from the bows.

Do you guys think that this seat position will be good for rowing? And for paddling? Hope so.

Brian

[ChrisC]

Hello, new member chiming in here.

After spending many days rowing Thames Skiffs in the rain my thoughts are these:

I have never found a clothing system that is totally waterproof and free from uncomfortable chafe when sitting down and rowing.  It is relatively easy to stay dry whilst standing up though, which suggests punting, stand-up paddling, yulohing, Venetian rowing etc. as preferred forms of locomotion. You still need good storm cuffs though.

Having thought about this a lot I would suggest a 16 to 20' outrigger canoe with the outrigger mounted forward and a sleeping platform on the bridgedeck.  The main hull would provide a footwell to enable comfortable sitting in camp and a tent would pitch over the whole platform.  I would stand aft using a pole for punting in the upper reaches and maybe a stand-up paddle for more open water. A downwind kayak rig like a 'pacific action' sail might be handy for the rare downwind reaches.

If I am back in the UK next year I would love to join the next Thames Raid!

[Timmo]

Hi Chris,

Some interesting thoughts.

Look forward to seeing them translated into action next year!

Tim.

From: "ChrisC [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: To the 2011 Raid "Band of Brothers"

Having thought about this a lot I would suggest a 16 to 20' outrigger canoe with the outrigger mounted forward and a sleeping platform on the bridgedeck.  The main hull would provide a footwell to enable comfortable sitting in camp and a tent would pitch over the whole platform.  I would stand aft using a pole for punting in the upper reaches and maybe a stand-up paddle for more open water. A downwind kayak rig like a 'pacific action' sail might be handy for the rare downwind reaches.

[Port-Na-Storm]

Righto.
 The requirements as specified by Paulie state,"The perfect Raid Boat for Rivers and Canals, specifically for an upper Thames Raid in 2012.

So lets look more closely at the environment; Its narrow ish, it winds a bit, there are almost no places to re-charge batteries. Furthermore, canals, proper canals on the canal network, not the Thames, have narrow little locks with barely room to swing a paddle never mind a pair of nine foot sweeps.
Its pretty, nice to look at and photograph, there's wildlife to see, and as Cee Dubbs will testify it doesn't hang around until you have either rowed past it, or worse puttered past with your stinkpot. There are boats coming the other way, trees, bushes, bridges etc.etc. So maybe facing forward, and keeping maximum width down is good.

For thousands of years mankind has managed to propel boats without the need for Petrol or Electricity. The paddle or yuloh  is quiet, zero carbon, environmentally sound, non polluting, low maintenance and requires no backup infrastructure, this is Good. Coupled with a simple piece of cloth on a stick for the five minutes when the wind actually blows the way you want it to gives the perfect combination of propulsion methods.

So far we've narrowed the choice down to; Tims, pedalling Canoe, Al's yuloh propelled Paradox, Cee Dubbs ingenious multi propulsion Rosie-Mae, PhilOx' Tonnawanda sail/paddle Prospector.

The next decision seems to be Liveaboard? or Liveashore?  Its true that the average English landowner is as welcoming as, well, an English landowner but there are places to camp, some official, others quiet little corners, you just have to be a bit more stealth like.
I like camping, my tent is small and light, it only takes a few minutes to erect or pack away. It means my bedroom is small and cosy while my "living room" is infinite.

This brings us to Kit. The amount of stuff people bring is directly related to the size of their boat. You bring it because you can. Then it all has to be unloaded and re-packed every day. I'm as guilty as everyone else.  

So, face forward, use a paddle or yuloh, sail when you can, travel light, come back fitter than you started,  enjoy your trip.

   

[BrianP]

So, a home made one of these then

A Hobie Outback with 20 sq ft sail. Sail it, paddle it, peddle it all facing forwards.

The sail is very interesting.



Its made of quick thick mylar, and sets with no boom or yard. That high angle batten sets the fat head sail but will still roll up around the mast. Very clever.

In fact Matt from Swallow boats mentioned, when I nagged him at Beale about having a sailing canoe in his range again, that they have 4 sailing canoes in build right now, being made by the workshop team in their own time, and that they are going to use the Hobie fat head battened supported type sail that rolls up around the mast as well.

Great solution to needing a quickly set and struck sail. Very small package when stored on deck too.

Sleeping on board, or not, does make quite a difference. I am going to make the sitting thwart removable in my 14' canoe so I can sleep on the floor between the cross braces which are 6' apart.

Brian  

[Paul H (admin)]

That's a good posting Graham, but I'm not giving up on electricity.

Electricity is our future fuel when oil/gas runs out and the sooner those Thames stinkpots convert to electricity the better. In fact the only solution for the 99% of Thames craft that are stinkpots is electricity or a horse on the towpath.

If we can pioneer boats using a combination of wind, manual power and electricity and nudge power boat users in that direction the Thames environment improves in terms of noise, pollution and wash damage (electric hulls tend to be efficient with reduced wash).

So my mission is to show the stinkpot users there are better choices and convert a few and have a bit of fun doing so.


I sort of got used to rowing backwards this year - looking to the left seemed to be natural to keep a close but constant distance from the bank and with a steady pace I was able to look around and enjoy things. Plus that put me within smiling/chatting distance of walkers along the bank....and ironically its easier to chat to them facing backwards.

Its a shame the Mirage drives are expensive - better to spend the £600 on batteries for MilliBee so I could do the whole trip on electric...pre-charged at home with my solar panels which are already in their CO2 saving phase (it takes about 2 years for the panels to generate the power used in their manufacture, after that there is a net CO2 saving).

Lets not forget the car miles getting to/from the start/finish and home. We are all guilty in that respect. The only true zero CO2 Raid involves living on the river or cycling/walking to the river towing a boat.

Its live-aboard for me, just like the DCA rallies.

-Paul

[alopenboat]

On 22 Jun 2011 at 9:03, adminHBBR [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> Lets not forget the car miles getting to/from the start/finish and
> home. We are all guilty in that respect. The only true zero CO2 Raid
> involves living on the river or cycling/walking to the river towing a
> boat.

Except that rowing/cycling/walking also produces CO2.
>
> Its live-aboard for me, just like the DCA rallies.

Very wise.

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

[Jeremy]

I have a feeling that my new, revived, electric Winsome might be a contender as an ideal river raid boat.  I don't have any new photos (the one below is an old one), as she's having open heart surgery at the moment (I've removed the prop drive leg, cut a large hole in her bottom and am fitting a new tunnel-mounted prop, to reduce her draft).



She's about 18ft long, with an 8ft long cockpit, so plenty of room for kipping down.

The canopy looks a bit like this one and has four big solar panels on top to provide all the power she needs:



The plan is to modify the canopy (it's rigid, made from ply over laminated hardwood curved beams) so that it has a zip around vertical fabric cover, maybe with some clear panels set in .  This should provide some weather protection on the move plus provide a fairly big place to kip at night.  

It has all that's needed, really.  Electric power, no need for charging, you can face in whatever direction you wish whilst travelling and it's narrow enough to not cause problems getting into tight spots.  I'm hopeful that the new tunnel prop mod will solve the deep draft problem I had (having 15" of drive leg hanging down underneath was a big nuisance).  The new prop design only increases draft by 3" below the lowest part of the hull, so I'm hopeful that it will make life a lot easier.  The down side is some loss of efficiency when compared with the big prop drive leg, but I'm hopeful that the solar panels should still be able to provide enough power for the sort of distances covered in a day.

Jeremy